Peter McCormack: Why Bitcoin’s Fungibility Issue Shouldn’t be Attacked by Monero Enthusiasts

this week on monerotalk is sponsored by cakewallet store send receive and exchange your monero safely on your ios and android 2. cake wallet is open source and you always control your own keys and seed cake collected and verified by the monero community monero talk is also made possible from contributions by viewers and listeners like you this week on monerotalk douglas tooman interviews peter mccormick creator and host of the most successful bitcoin podcast what bitcoin did peter opens with declaring his admiration for monero despite being a bitcoiner first and foremost the conversation becomes a bit contentious as expected with doug pushing peter on what he sees as bitcoin's flaws peter was reluctant to argue the technical features of bitcoin versus monero but he was a great sport and we hope to have him back on soon with technical experts to get deeper into the weeds of these digital cash protocols perhaps the most revealing moment was peter admitting that bitcoin may have a fungibility problem after doing some googling during the show the takeaway being if you are new to this space don't only listen to talking heads in crypto land like doug or peter and trying to figure out what cryptos have real value rather do your own research to understand what technical features are vital to a cryptocurrency understand what risks exist for each and invest accordingly narrow talk starts now all right peter thank you so much for coming on man yeah cool man anytime so i don't know if you remember we met we met uh a while back in new york city do you remember that is that yeah yeah we met i was gonna say we met there did didn't i do like a little short interview or something segment there as well with you guys uh i don't think so i think we tried to get you but you you were a very popular guy at the conference you still are probably more popular now uh so uh but we definitely talked we uh we met we talked a little bit at the conference and i think we then uh spoke at one of the after parties but i think as as you're probably well aware i am uh one of the one of the monero advocates that's uh out there on the interwebs and uh you i i kind of put you know put you in that category a little bit i often hear you talking about monero on your show um you're no you're not the you're not a a staunch advocate but uh i think you're you're a healthy skeptic i think is fair to say somebody who's you're certainly not a non-believer i don't think you're putting it in the category of coin is that fair to say yeah no i'm not i'm not in the category of coin uh up until whenever monero was the last non-bitcoin thing i held um but i eventually sold my remaining monero for bitcoin only because not for any reason i don't believe in monero but i just feel like bitcoin is a better savings technology and you know that amount of narrow was better to be held a bitcoin for me there is this kind of like weird pressure if you're a bitcoiner especially if you've got a podcast it's like if you're anything but bitcoin you just get a lot of so very early on my podcast was you know it was really a crypto show than a bitcoin show and i talk about all kinds of stuff and i just got an immense amount of uh you know stop supporting scammers stop supporting coins blah blah blah but when i interviewed fluffy i said to him there's like two kinds of bitcoin at maximus there's bitcoin maximus and then bitcoin maximus but monero's okay um so i'm okay with monero i don't consider it a coin i certainly can see a use case for it uh i might you know a lot of people know my real entry into bitcoin was wanting to uh buy treatment for my mother when she was sick and i used bitcoin if i was in that position again i wouldn't use bitcoin because i wouldn't want to be i wouldn't want that on the ledger and i'm not proficient enough with privacy technologies to uh to avoid that scenario but if i had to do it again i would use monero happily um i'm perfectly aware like if i buy monero on an exchange you know the kyc shows have that monero but i would still happily use monero i think the project has uh um i trust fluffy pony unlike him i like the origin story it's actually similar in some ways to bitcoin so no i i don't have an issue with with monero i think it's fine uh i i i don't i think calling it a coin is is actually incorrect all right all right we got so we got we got one point on the board there that that's good that's good i'm okay with an hour so how do we get you to and obviously you know the you could do whatever you want but how how could we possibly get you to be a a more staunch supporter of monero and and the reason i ask is because i i think it's important for monero to ultimately survive i think we're seeing a lot of issues with bitcoin you know i mean we could go into it more but uh obvious issue being that it's ultimately built on this transparent ledger uh where it's it's essentially not private at all uh and with enough resources any transaction can be tracked and traced coins can be blacklisted uh one bitcoin doesn't always equal one bitcoin uh and my concern is that you know it may be cr become the great panacea so to speak right so the uh the the or panopticon i'm sorry uh you know where where everything can be tracked and traced and uh you know uh you know governments or companies with enough resources could potentially uh begin to censor people and how they transact on bitcoin um mining companies and mining pools can be careers to do do certain things and we're starting to see these things actually happen i'm concerned that you know we we need to make sure that little brother monero survives how do we get guys like you and antonopoulos and some of these other big bitcoin maximalists to get out there and start talking uh talking up monero not just saying oh yeah it was okay but like you know onboarding people to monero so that when the attacks really do start to come monero will survive oh well there's a lot in that um okay so i don't think you do it by concern trolling bitcoin i understand why you would do that because you want to look at the uh you want to look at the usps with monero and you want to promote that and therefore you want to compare it to bitcoin but let me let me talk about let's go through some of your points so you said one bitcoin doesn't always equal one bitcoin so tell me how that's not how that statement is true well you know it's it's with the nate the transparent nature of of bitcoin right so we know that chain analysis companies exist uh we know today that certain bitcoins are being marked as belonging to certain wallets um you know the united states government has blacklisted certain wallets uh put sanctions on wallets on that are held by you know what's presumed to be uh terrorists uh we we know these are things that that are already happening and that will happen to a greater degree so if you can blacklist a coin then how could that coin always equal the other coins well i i've always felt like if there is um yeah if they if if somebody wants to sell their bitcoin lower than the market rate i'd be willing to buy it and then i would hop that bitcoin and sell it now it's a different scenario when you're talking about sanctioned wallets because i don't know the full implications i don't really want the weight of the us government against me but i think your specific scenario there is like a very unique specific scenario but generally speaking one bitcoin does equal one bitcoin um i yeah i understand what you're saying there i also think privacy is improving with bitcoin there's a number of great technologies uh coin join there's some work being done by i can't remember the guy chris belcher there is work being done to improve privacy and that is coming um i think there's been a lot of focus on the 21 million and that's where a lot of the narratives is shifting and hedge against inflation but privacy is improving with bitcoin the tools available i don't think you grow monero by con you know talking about the concerns about bitcoin i think you grow monero by just promoting what monero does itself okay yeah fair enough uh but you're you're not you don't have those concerns with bitcoin i know privacy is is potentially improving on bitcoin but don't you think it should be it should have those characteristics today i mean we're talking about money right so yeah like you you've kind of agreed that and you know i'm not trying to like you know make that debate i just but don't you think money needs to be fungible and you kind of agreed that there are that this is happening that bitcoins are being marked and maybe it's not a problem today and maybe the fact that you can mark bitcoins that are owned by a terrorist group is actually a good thing right today but it becomes a problem in the future when those coins are controlled by some minority political group in some country that's run by you know some dictator and those people need to move those funds around to help uh you know protect and and help their cause right that's really kind of like what makes this such a powerful technology um and so if bitcoin lacks that ability essentially lacks fungibility and lacks censorship resistance and we can get into that doesn't that become a critical flaw of bitcoin and that's why i think it's important to talk about monero in terms of bitcoin because bitcoin is just not living up to its original promise depends what you say that the original promise is um so the way the way i think about it is that i think we're still very early technology the bitcoin technology is still relatively new it's only 12 years old um very early days of bitcoin i'm assuming some people similar to when i first when i first had monero i had to use the command line interface um there was no wallet for me to use yeah uh so i used the command line interface and i had to learn something there and i was never very confident in what i was doing but still i managed to figure it out uh i think you know in the very early days bitcoin was like that and you know bitcoin is improving but there are certainly a lot of work being done to improve bitcoin privacy i know there are people out there who are able to use their bitcoin privately they are able to use the tech tools available they just may be a step too far for someone like myself because it isn't uh on-chain privacy but on-chain privacy also comes with its own potential issues right you have the potential of an inflation bug and not knowing it exists so there are these trade-offs um i wouldn't want bitcoin to have on chain privacy because of that risk of inflation uh that unknown risk of inflation yes so you know i i encourage you to do more research on that um you know that that risk exists uh but that risks you know similarly exists with bitcoin um we've seen it with bitcoin we've seen uh you know bitcoin have implementation issues in its early days where you know potentially billions of new bitcoins were created and luckily that was like seven years eight years ago right but it happened right and it's a technology and you know that's an implementation flaw that that can happen to bitcoin it could happen to monero as well uh there's the assumptions but the slight difference is if it happens on monero you won't know well there's different scenarios right so it can happen to bitcoin right we know it it's happened it could happen to bitcoin again uh it can happen to monero in a similar way where it's notice and it could potentially happen to monero in a way where there's an implementation bug where it's not as easily noticed right eventually it probably would be noticed because you would see you know there's you know 100 a million manero on on 10 different exchanges that add up to more monero than should be existence so eventually you you would discover that flaw on bitcoin you may discover the flaw sooner but now wait what i just want to get to one point though and the point being this is you know this is something we deal with in all technology i mean you know we could all be riding around in uh model t fords because you know it's very easy to to comprehend the concept of a combustion engine and you you know you you look you you pop the hood and you could very easily trust that you know the pistons are triggering correctly and you know you could see it all working uh but stepping into a tesla that's driving you around where you're not even touching the steer steering wheel requires a lot more trust in the technology but ultimately people are getting into those teslas right and they're getting into those teslas because they trust the people they trust the math they trust the science they trust the engineering behind that tesla and that's what allows technology to advance the same reason we get into to space shuttles right so uh you know bitcoin is is like the model t in that you know it's very simple easy to work with easy to understand and you know bitcoin in the beginning was very abstract but a lot of people have kind of wrapped their heads around with it manero is just the next layer of abstraction same basic concepts blockchain technology but just a little bit more math involved in in trusting the fact that you know the coins are all there and that when you make a transaction they'll go through so you're trusting the cryptography just like you are in in bitcoin and you're trusting the implementation so you have to trust the people that put it in and you have to look and verify it yourself so you have to trust that there's enough smart people that are looking at the open source code and have determined that there is not a bug there so i don't see how that's much different than bitcoin only that it's a little bit more complicated just like a tesla's more complicated than a model t but you're getting so much more in return you're getting that that that you know that tesla experience now you're zapping money around where it's where it's completely private and untraceable there's a few issues i take with that so firstly if you're if your goal is to interest people like myself and andreas who are very much interested in bitcoin to care more about monero again i don't think concerned trolling bitcoins the way because what you're doing is therefore you're bringing up criticisms now which i don't think are entirely fair with bitcoin like not delivering upon its original promise because the original promise is debatable you know roger there thinks the original promise was uh cheap fast transactions and it was essentially electronic cash uh other people think it's digital gold you know people think ever like a range of things what they think bitcoin is uh that was like this uh misbelief that bitcoin was anonymous is actually pseudonymous um that's not gonna convince me to promote monero what's gonna permit uh convinced me to promote monero is specific use cases for people um i wouldn't i wouldn't say on-chain privacy is a an advantage monero has over bitcoin i would say it's a differentiator it's not an advantage because like i say i can run the numbers for bitcoin and i can know the total supply i can run that with my full node and see it with monero you know you said you can do it with monero but what so you convert so you can have an inflation bug and verify the full number you there's no not a possibility of having an inflation bargain you can and uh because i thought one of the problems with on-chain privacy is that you can have an inflation bug and people won't realize that new bitcoin has been sorry new moneros has been created i thought that happened with zca with banero you you could you know in the client you can basically count up all the coin based transactions and you can know that the amount of monero that is that is supposed to exist actually exists then what you would have to do is then you know trust that that command essentially worked that the program is actually working that it's all properly implemented uh that the math behind it is correct how do you do that well you are you or i can't do that right we don't have the the skill set to do that uh but there's many people that do that are much smarter than us that have been looking at this for a very long time just that they like have been looking at bitcoin and they're saying no it is implemented correctly you know the the the math behind it uh is correct and we can rely on it so i mean you can you can verify that the amount of monero in existence are are actually uh you know a given number based on running the code and and looking at it and then relying on the fact that it's been properly implemented and you have to rely on that in bitcoin as well it has to be properly implemented for it to work and we've seen that there's been instances where it wasn't properly implemented and so i mean it's it's no different between bitcoin in that respect now like we said you know there could be that hidden inflation bug but eventually you would see it and it's ultimately really not that much different than bitcoin in that you know you can have implementation bugs in either bitcoin or monero so i mean that that's like that i guess bitcoin would be known straight away potentially you know or somebody might know it before somebody else and they can short the entire you know bitcoin market and they can drive it they can drive it down to you know drive it down to zero um you know there could be some person that you know maybe maybe figures out how to how to break the discrete logarithm you know uh you know i mean that that's it's possible these are these are assumptions that we make uh these are this is what it's built upon but this you know they're not essentially laws of nature here um but i guess what what i want to make here though just before you respond is is that you know i know i know you're saying and i don't want this to come you know maybe i re incorrectly phrased things in the beginning you know my goal isn't to uh to tell you that you got to go out there and promote monero and i obviously i realize that's not the best way to get people to promote monero they need to see a real use but i do think it's important to talk about bitcoin's flaws here and i just don't hear that being talked about enough and then when it is talked about i don't hear people then comparing it to monero where those flaws have been solved rather they go to oh but you know you can't uh if there is a secret implementation bug uh you know monero's worthless uh without talking about i didn't say that fungibility is critical you know gold is fungible uh the us dollar is fungible uh bitcoin is not monero is and in the discussion just i think bitcoin is fungible well we we agree that it you know we talked about it and agreed that it can be blacklisted and that you know it it's not fun i mean that makes it not fungible right that no that that means that there is a law out there where you face consequences of transacting with a certain wallet it doesn't mean bitcoin itself isn't fungible it means you can basically write a message and attach attach a node attach a message to a to to a bitcoin and that's a problem well no it means that the the usg can can create a sanctions against against certain addresses but it doesn't make the bitcoin itself not fungible well it does because it it's the protocol itself isn't resistant to the ability to mark units of it so i assume you would rather that be the case right where you couldn't mark units of the protocol uh i don't think the government can market i think they can create records that tell people that certain coins are are sanctioned but they can't stop somebody sending the person who owns that wallet they still can't stop them sending that bitcoin elsewhere even when they control the the mining farms i mean i mean that's that's that's another issue we could get into is but they don't control the mining farms but they they can right so we're starting to see that we see that we saw that recently in iran right so they're concerned about the mining that's taking place there they're very easily finding where all the bitcoin miners are uh it's very easy to find you know uh you know somebody who has a warehouse full of bitcoin miners it's very easy to approach them as the government it's very easy to take over bitcoin uh mining farm uh it tends toward it it's tending towards centralization we're seeing that we're seeing that i disagree i don't think it's tended to i think it's tended towards decentralization i mean so i'll give you two examples uh so there is a uh so a lot of people talk about chinese centralization of mining um uh you know there's a somebody signed a message within uh where is it let me find this this is an interesting thing somebody signed a message within uh bitcoin block i'm trying to find the record now criticizing china where is it i saw on twitter earlier now i'm just going to be the one and that's had 536 confirmations so that's that's been confirmed by wallets sorry miners that exist in china um and that was critical of the chinese state um i actually think uh bitcoin's becoming more decentralized in terms of mining uh barry silbert's let me try and find this sorry i mean i'm not like people know my i'm not the most technical so when you want to talk about technical things someone like andreas would be a much better conversation than i am well yeah i mean we we know that there's a lot of mining happening in china right here we go here we go digital currencies group mining arm enters top 10 global mining pools i actually think bitcoin mining is becoming more decentralized we've seen some growth in russia we've you said what's happening in iran you see what's happening in china you know we do we do know there's a lot in china there's a lot of growth in the us i've just seen a a mining unit which was in the jungle i think have you seen the compliant mining pool that's being started uh in in canada yeah and i don't think it will survive particularly long i think people i don't think people will i i just don't see a a long life or a compliant mining pool if if governments make regulations that says you basically have to use a compliant mining pool you don't think that would survive or it makes regulations that that miners have to have to make sure that they're not processing transactions from certain blacklisted wallets those miners are going to essentially have to be forced to use a compliant mining pool to make sure that they're not taking that risk and accidentally processing a transaction from a black listed wallet so i mean these are the problems that are happening because of bitcoin's flaw and they wouldn't exist they don't exist i mean we monero exists we know monero exists we know it's different than bitcoin we know it is fungible and monero simply doesn't have these problems well monero's got other problems monero's got problems that exchanges are de-listing it right why they do listing them because monero works right yeah exactly so you've got it you've got a different regulatory problem than bitcoin has so you can say well monero's failing because it can't be compliant with certain regulations that allow it to exist i think both have regulatory challenges but i don't i i think your concern over concern troll in bitcoin and you're making these issues out to be bigger than they are i don't see we have a massive issue with centralization and mining i think mining is becoming more decentralized i also think some of the work uh i think it's called better hashtag the work that uh matt corello is doing which is supporting that yeah the thing about bitcoin is like on every vector people are always working on directionally improving directionally uh making sure bitcoin is more decentralized and every uh on every kind of uh measure i feel like mining is becoming more decentralized i i feel like a compliant mining pool uh whatever a very limited uh life i haven't talked i don't want to talk something like jimmy song but i want i would want to find out how uh how that how what can be done about a compliant mining pool can it be rejected by the network because i i'm not keen on compliant mining pools and i yeah but i don't have an answer for that you're asking me about stuff i have no experience well i mean yeah but we know we know it's happening and i'm sure maybe you'll even potentially do a show on something like that uh it seems to be indicative of a problem um you know the these chain analysis companies seem to be indicative of a problem and uh you're i mean you seem to be taking the stance that while that's not a problem uh that bitcoin can essentially be tracked and traced no no no that's not what that's not what i've said well you're saying that it can't i i don't yes and i'm not really clear you're saying that that that's not a problem because it's governments that are doing it and it's these companies that are doing it to bitcoin so it's dependent on once they eventually stop doing that then we'll be okay it depends on each issue um i i think your concern drawn trolling bitcoin which is a project which is an ongoing project which is uh continually being developed on best practices which direction is becoming more decentralized i think each cryptocurrency has a problem uh xrp is a problem that is considered a security ethereum has a scaling issue uh monero has a regulatory issue and that because of uh uh exchange you're gonna do listing it yeah bitcoin has its own issues but but each one has its own like uh uh um benefits over each other too but i think you're concerned trolling for the sake of uh promoting monero but if anything you're turning me off monero by doing this because you put me on the defense on the subjects that i'm not an expert in look we've got to remember i'm the guy who asked questions not usually answers it if i was going to answer him i would you know i wouldn't need to do the podcast i do the podcast i'm better at the questions and i actually think i even think right now like doing the show with me going into this level of detail i think this is not even helpful for your listeners because there's gonna be two types of listener this will be the type of listener who's perhaps a big fan of monero like yourself who sees issue with bitcoin they're gonna go oh let's see that idiot doesn't even understand and that's gonna like entrench their position and then you're gonna maybe some listeners who aren't uh who aren't as experienced as or aren't as entrenched and they might listen to me and they might hear a misleading response because i'm not an expert in this uh so i think interviewing me based on this level of detail doesn't actually help anyone i think when you want to talk about that yeah i don't think it's a great level of detail we're talking about you know superficial things here the fact that we're not really we're actually we're talking we're talking about like some of those important issues you know i think people that are listening to it that are our bitcoiners that you know listen to you may start to question bitcoin which is a great great thing and i think that's what you should be doing more of and i so i think that's definitely a positive no i do somebody's listening to this and they're saying wait one bitcoin doesn't equal one bitcoin that sounds like a problem and if they if they have that thought that's an amazing great eureka moment for them and they'll go do some googling and then they could decide whether or not they think that's true uh and i think anybody with you know good reasoning skills we'll realize that that is in fact the case so i don't think in providing information is a bad thing i think that's a good thing so the market can properly decide i mean ultimately it's gonna happen anyway um but i think it's good to to help be part of that mechanism that gets that information out there which is which is what you do which is why you run a podcast yourself it sounds to me like you it sounds to me like you believe monero is an alternative to bitcoin like it's a better technology and people should be adopting it instead of bitcoin because of its properties whereas i would say they are complementary technologies that do slightly different things that come complement each other but i think trying to have them trying to face them off against each other uh with a guest who isn't the right person to answer these kind of questions i don't think that is productive i think it's productive to have the conversation um you know i i think monero and bitcoin are two things if anything i think monero's the the ultimate hedge to bitcoin and bitcoin is the ultimate hedge to monero do you hold bitcoin i i used to be uh solely a bitcoiner and i've moved completely into monero you've com we've yeah see that i think one of the issues with doing that is that you end up having like you end up having a bias uh i mean that's that's yeah we all have a bias you're obviously extremely biased about bitcoin i mean yeah yeah i know i agree i admit that but like that depending on when you did that that might have been a costly decision so the way i read this interview is like you you want to promote monero because for you as a store of value that's a that could be a profitable exercise because if more people adopt monero that's good for your mineral holding which means yeah i think that's that's a very obvious thing peter that's that's what everybody's doing it's it's people are fighting for the adoption of these different currencies yeah i think in the monero community in particular that really doesn't happen much at all uh but you know during during this talk today in in order to make these points i i have to say these things and i think it's important to say and to just you know put that in a lot of all right well you know it's kind of start going down the road of all right well you're a coiner and like you know that that's like the ultimate argument that a bitcoin maximalist makes well i don't like that it just ends the conversation right there rather than talking about the merits and when we get into talking about the merits you start to talk about things like fungibility and you know but you're saying that's too high level but i think that's you know that's a pretty simple and basic thing uh you know what what do you think what do you think the purpose of cryptocurrency is or what do you think it's its greatest potential use case is how is why why don't we just continue to use gold why even use bitcoin at all what is the purpose of bitcoin well i think it depends on the in individual but so i just want to repeat finish my points i didn't finish earlier it's like you know obviously i hold bitcoin and i want people to adopt bitcoin and that's good for my personal holdings as well and you're the same with monero but i feel like you're now finding ways to attack bitcoin to try and get people to adopt monero and i just don't think that's going to be a successful strategy for you i think yeah i'm not you know i'm pointing out the flaws of bitcoin just like bitcoiners point out the flaws of fiat currency right true but i think in doing that this isn't making me want to promote monero more um i think if you talked about it more as a complimentary technology and talked about what the two of them did because you're not going to dethrone bitcoin i mean you can try good luck um and if i thought that this was this conversation i would have said you know what let's write down the topics let's do it another day because i could go and do my research and at least come armed with the right arguments or the right defenses or the right yeah the answers um i'm i'm uh somebody who asks questions not tends to answer them um but you're not going to dethrone bitcoin that like that ship sailed now yeah it does it doesn't have to it doesn't have to be an all or nothing it doesn't have to be a dethroning of bitcoin i agree that's what you're trying to it feels like that's what you're trying to do though like i think you've convinced yourself like that bitcoin is a flawed technology and that's why people should adopt monero but i think that's the wrong approach because i think that both both technologies have flaws like i'm just reading about fungibility and you know actually you're right there is a fungibility issue with bitcoin but it's not all bitcoins but i agree with you there's a fungibility issue with bitcoin now because i've you know read some of the details on this but i just think it's going to be i don't think it's going to be a successful strategy for promoting monero i think actually what you're going to do is you're going to turn people off monero by attacking bitcoin i think if you talk about it as a as a different technology i think we should just talk about the merits what what people decide to do is what you know maybe them just well that's what we're doing so we we're trying to talk about the fungibility but instead you want to talk about uh how i'm using this podcast as a method to you know uh persuade people to do certain things uh we're just we're having a conversation about you admitted that's what you said you you admitted that you actually said that you said of course yes peter and you admitted it as well and my my whole point is that's what everybody in cryptocurrency is doing right everybody's not entirely not entirely but my point being is like i don't i'm advocating for i'm advocating for a project that i believe in i think monero will preserve liberty in the digital age that's why i'm extremely passionate about it and i think bitcoin is critically flawed now you don't have to agree with that but i mean that's not i don't see why that's a problem that i have that opinion i don't care if that you know i'm not here to ultimately if that's not convincing people well i opened it i'm making the right you know uh following my heart at the moment and you know my intuition and uh where my research has led me and you know i hear you and you're saying you know you just did a quick google and you're realizing bitcoin may not be as fungible as you thought i mean that's like literally the most important thing to to understand with all this i mean it's no no it's not it's actually it's only essential if that gives you the unique selling point of monero but the fungibility issue that you talk about that that didn't stop people in belarus being to receive donations to uh to uh support their protests against lukashenko they didn't stop people in nigeria received but it will it may one day it may catch up with them that that information saved on that ledger forever yeah it may catch up with them at some point but at the same time like i say there's a lot of work being done into improving uh privacy with bitcoin and you know bitcoin i trust bitcoin developers i think they're the best developers in the world they have an option to do on chain privacy the same way that monero does and they've made the decision not to they've made the decision that off chain privacy is better and there's a lot of work been done on that i know there are people who are able to operate privately with bitcoin and they they know better than me uh uh and if i went to one of them said look i need to get my privacy ship together i'm sure they they could help me i just don't think like i say if the way this is going i i think i think it's a flaw strategy for you to attack bitcoin as a flawed technology is with critical uh flaws i just don't think it does for some people some people don't want fungibility i know this sounds mad some people happy to custody their bitcoin with other people play on the 21 million and hedge inflation whether you think that's right or wrong is irrelevant what do you think about that i think that is a use case and i think the thing about bitcoin is that it has use cases uh that is some of the use case for some people okay other people it is censorship resistant money other people it is uh to be able to store their wealth and move across borders there are a number of different uses that people have um and that exists i would probably to debate the idea of fungibility i just want to spend a little bit of time and go go and look at that and have a better argument for you but like i say there are people out there who do a better job at defending stuff like this than me yeah you know but i think it's well it's productive if now you're going to go look at look at bitcoin's fungibility so productive in that right there while you're looking at that i think you should look at the decentralized nature of bitcoin as well i mean are you familiar you're i'm sure you're familiar with asic mining right yes and the fact that you know asics mine bitcoin it wasn't always asics it used to be you know essentially uh nerds in their basement running their computers uh in monero technology has been built to be asic resistant uh there's been great advances made there very breakthroughs in technology howard chu invented random x and basically it only allows cpus to be the most competitive in mining uh essentially preventing the you know the establishment of of specialized asics that can mine better than cpus and what does that do that helps maintain the decentralized nature of the mining network so that you don't have these tremendous warehouses of asics that only certain people even have access to that could essentially be co-opted by the states that they're housed in by the governments that they're housed in which is and you know i encourage you to look into that deeper that's potentially a major issue uh you know it could turn into the censorship of transactions when you know these bitcoin mining facilities start to get co-opted by governments and like we said we're already seeing it with uh you know these mining pools that are coming out that are saying that they're gonna only mine uh clean bitcoin so i encourage you to look into that are you do you have any opinion there on the decentralized nature of bitcoin versus something like monero um sorry by the way i found that uh that transaction if china controls bitcoin or bitcoin mining then why would this transaction have 543 confirmations which in it says taiwan is an independent nation um i i don't think we have a centralization issue with mining okay people often talk about it people concern troll with it i don't believe we have an issue with the centralization of mining um i i believe it's becoming more decentralized in terms of the different technologies now i don't know that been there because i haven't looked at monero so i don't know about this so i can't really answer on that but again there are people that could be there are other people you should be interviewing before you interview me on stuff like this because like i'm known for not being a technical person i know okay well we've reached it to me we've talked to many many people uh in the bitcoin community in the monarch community i want to talk to you because you know you you are uh you know you're you're an influencer and that's important and you know you know what i said you can do whatever you want and you know you've admitted that you know uh you're influenced by the bags you hold and you're influenced by essentially you know the the people that you're around right if you start talking about monero or xy or xyz coin instead of bitcoin uh you're probably going to lose a lot of bitcoin maximalists you may even use no no no i'm fine i'm fine on monero i've always been fine on monero and i haven't talked about it but i i just this i i didn't realize this was going to be the topic so this is the kind of thing where i probably if i don't know and i would say just send me over to one of the things we're going to talk about because i need to do the research on this because we're talking about things i just i don't i spend all day every day looking at bitcoin right but i don't look at it from the technical side i look at it from the side help people understand how to invest and how to understand what's happening like in the macroeconomic market um we're talking about like deeply technical issues and they're just it's not something that crosses my path okay well i would love whatever i could do to help you understand monero better would love to would love to help do that in any way possible uh i know you had fluffy pony on maybe you could have somebody you know not me because at the end of the day you know i'm i'm kind of i'm like the you of monero so to speak right maybe you could have uh somebody from the monero community community one of the developers uh you know fluffy he's not even the lead maintainer anymore i don't even know if you're aware of that i mean a lot yeah yeah so you know there's a lot of other very uh you know active people in the monero community that are are making great strides maybe you could have one of the month the talk maybe you could have howard chew on he would be amazing the guy that invented random x uh he would be a great guy to talk to um it's a big one it's a bitcoin well that's i so why though why isn't it why isn't it a digital cash show why isn't it uh you know why isn't it about digital cash why is it about just bitcoin why is match of the day about football and not about all sports well because it comes down to what what is bitcoin trying to achieve bitcoin is just the name right it's it's it's trying and it's just uh an implementation of something trying to achieve a certain outcome so why not talk about the other things that are potentially doing that better okay we're getting into that area again i do you know what i think that we're better off doing i think you're if you want to do this you're better off telling me the subjects you want to talk about giving me some time to go and research them so i can give an educated answer and go and speak okay you want to ask me some questions right now about monero no i think i think we should do this again and i think you should get me on and you should have me alongside somebody else who is a little bit more technical we can go through the points and that be the person who can then go because i don't i'm just not a technical person i'm a creative person so this this kind of interview i don't think serves anyone any benefit because i shouldn't be trusted on anything technical therefore my opinion on technical things shouldn't be trusted therefore i don't think anyone should trust this interview as a as a as a place for making a decision between bitcoin and monero because there are people who who understand this stuff at a deep technical level that's their job day in day out i don't so right i don't i like if anyone's listening to this now do not trust me i'm a i don't get this same here you know you do your own research obviously uh but i i think this is productive you know i think i think it's a good start and if you're if you're willing to i would love to send you information uh to to go research and you don't have to read no i would definitely come back send me your key arguments let me go away and do my research because then at least i can come on but like i say i don't spend day in day out comparing the technical side of cryptocurrencies there are people who do that because they're technical they're developers or they understand that i don't what i do is i try and like i did a utxo show today and that was about people getting the basic understanding of what a utxo is because the majority of people like i get a lot of for like talking about the technical side of things being beyond people but i read the dms i get i read the emails most people just don't get the or they don't have the time and so i it's all baby steps for them um that's what i do i help people with the baby steps because that's what i need so if you want this kind of like deep i'm not even the guy i'm the i can sit on the conversation and go well what about this what about that but i'm not the one to defend or promote moneros mining versus bitcoins mining or discuss like fungibility there are people who are experts in that and they're better off doing well yeah you're talking to all these experts all the time and i totally get that no but you are an influencer and that's why i want to make sure you're getting access to the information because like you know i see you know like alex gladstein um uh i think he's been on your show a few times uh he might even be teamed up with you right for defiance right um you know so i always hear him talking about bitcoin and uh talking about how it can be used to you know it's a great censorship resistant technology but it but it's not and that that's a problem to be out there as somebody who's um you know an influencer uh in in these areas telling people whose life potentially depends on the technology they use that they should be using bitcoin when it may be very costly to them and it may lead to the exact opposite of what they're trying to achieve when they're using a transparent ledger and all their transactions are traceable and that's that's a big issue because we're out there and we're telling people use bitcoin you know if you're if you're worried about sanctions in your country use bitcoin all right well what ma what happens when they catch up to you and you know they they do chain analysis and they find you and they track you that's a big problem and i think you know we need to be responsible we need to make sure we're telling people to use the right technology just like you know everybody's moving over to signal now right they've they're concerned about what's up if you want to be responsible i think the next the important thing to do is we pause this now you send me what your key arguments are and i'll come back but i'll bring somebody with me who who can answer some of the questions that i can't answer but what i think i can add to the conversation is the kind of questions that i just have which which i think will be useful but i think that would be a much more productive uh conversation to people to listen to than me trying to defend technical things i just don't have the experience or skill set to do okay understandable especially when you think bitcoin is so critically flawed i think it's irresponsible for this to go out with me trying to defend something at that kind of technical level because i can't do it so i think that would be much more productive okay yeah we could redo it i mean i'll probably post you don't mind if i post this show right or you know this discussion you can post it if you want i don't think it's productive but i'm not going to tell you not to publish it i just don't i don't understand what anyone's going to get out of this okay i think it's some people people call max are doesn't understand the technical side and i'll get true listen i i think you know i think monero's greatest flaw is that you know i don't have uh you know a sexy british action i mean you're doing it you do a great job man you do a great job uh i understand that you're not a technical guy i'm not extremely technical either you know i'm not uh some cryptographer uh you know i'm not a computer science guy i'm an engineer i'm an attorney as well by trade uh i can get into the weeds with things i was good at physics in high school but that's about that's about it you know i'm not what's up i'm a creative guy and i'm a marketing guy i know it and it's and it's done very well and you know you've done you've done amazing things for bitcoin and crypto and i applaud you for that and you know you're a big part of helping crypto grow i mean it's that can that can't be taken away from you in any way but it's it's why i want to talk to you and why i want to try to get you more into monero because it is a passion of mine and i'm so concerned i know a lot of monero people are too and a lot of hardcore old-school bitcoiners are too that they're seeing they're watching bitcoin be co-opted they're watching the the critical flaw as i like to call it being exposed and being misused and we're just not hearing the alarms go off and we're not hearing people talk about these other alternatives yeah well like this wasn't the conversation i expected so like i say if you want to publish it do i would just add a disclaimer anyone listen don't listen to my opinion i'm a listen to my show and listen to the experts but i would happily do it again but i would want to bring someone with me i would want to know the topics in advance a bit like you know when joe rogan had uh jack dorsey on to talk about uh and they were talking about censorship yeah he brought tim paul on with him as well because tim paul is the expert on all those subjects that's what i do i i know how to facilitate a conversation and moderate a conversation but i can't sit there and you know week in week out uh uh know all the technical answers the macro economic like there's too much to know i know how to facilitate a conversation so you can publish it all you want i think it's i think i've added nothing to the debate but i think you did and i think you'd be surprised i think there was some there was some there was some insight there and uh when i listened to your show um with i guess it was shinobi right that was no i listen to your show all the time but i listened to your recent one i think that was your last one and like so even listening to that you know for anybody because i know you cater really to to kind of noobs too right so like obviously cater to hardcore bitcoiners because it's like you know you're out it's like watching a football game right like you're you're like the guy who's uh talking about what's going on in in crypto world and everybody's tuning in um but for the newbs i mean listening to that i mean that's that's scary right the fact that if you want to do privacy right you basically have to be like uh shinobi and you know know how to use the bitcoin client break down your your you know your ux to's make sure you're properly combining them uh make sure you know there's so many steps there to properly use bitcoin if you want it to come close to being as fungible as it can be or as private as it can be and that that's you know that's a scary thing to to i don't think it's scary well it's it you i see that as a flaw you know in bitcoin you could tell people you know if you want to tell somebody if somebody's about to make some transaction that may be controversial uh you could tell them you know use bitcoin but watch out you've got a coin joiner first and obviously you know that might be illegal actually because you're opting into a mixing service or you could do x y or z or you could tell them just use monero well i think and it's as simple as that you know it's it's i know when you first used it you had the client but now it's all on the phone we have cake while we have these others you you send monero just as easily you can send bitcoin and there's no other thought involved it's it works as digital cash nobody knows what you're sending how much you're sending they don't know who sent it and they don't know who received it i think the most productive thing now is send me a list of key talking points we reschedule and do it again and i'll bring somebody on to like help me on the technical side that i don't understand i think that would be the most productive thing okay we could do that i would love that i think i think we'll get a lot more out of it and i think the listener would get far more out of it all right well i appreciate your time anyway i i hope i hope i didn't scare you off now and you will come back on the interview i expected if i thought it was i would have been like okay i need to prepare i need to know the key topics i didn't think we would be talking about stuff like this but that's fine let's do it again but let's do it in a productive way so we make sure because all that matters is the listener gets the right information can i can i get you to do one other thing between now and then can you add can you add to your uh your website a monero donation address in addition to a bitcoin one no no no because i'm a bitcoin show aren't you concerned like i went i went on your website i saw the address i looked it up i see there's like four bitcoins in there you're not concerned that people can see the the amount of money they're they're donating to you and you know the fact that there's definitely not for bitcoin in that dress anymore you mean historically there's gone to it yeah and then you could track and trace it you know there's there's a trail there you could see the amount that went in there i mean that that's a little concerning you know with you with mineiro that's not to get put a monero donation address up there i had a manero address on there for two years and didn't receive one monero donation okay well maybe now maybe now you would you know we'll get it out to the monero community maybe i think i think the point really is i need uh one of those i need to sort out the privacy of my bitcoin donation address because it's been that fixed address for a long time um i wish i'll still fall bitcoin in that address let me ask you one last question before we go and i if if you could i mean this is kind of a stupid question but if you could magically turn your bitcoin into uh you know a monero version of it so or bitcoin staying as bitcoin if you could snap your fingers and it can be as private as and fungible as monero would you want that would you rather have you know 50 bitcoin or 50 untraceable private bitcoin i think that's a leading question because you'll give me a question where there's obviously only one answer but we're not considering the externalities or what it makes the like what it requires for that to happen and it's like it's like a theoretical situation that doesn't exist so i'm not going to answer it because it's a leading question but i understand why you're asking it okay because it does exist it's called monero where you know but i i get i get all your arguments send me the send me the discussion points like i said i'll bring somebody with me like i said all that matters is if if we're gonna have a discussion the most important thing is what the listener takes from it and we we should have a duty to give them the most accurate information when we get into deep technical subjects i'm not going to give them that so that this isn't serving them any benefit so send me the questions i'll come back and we'll do it again but i'll bring somebody with me who is better on the technical side all right man i appreciate it all right peace out man ciao thank you for joining us on this week's episode we release new episodes every week you can find and subscribe to the show on itunes spotify stitcher google play youtube or wherever you listen to podcast and if you have an alexa device you can tell it to listen to the latest episode of the monero talk podcast go to subscribe for a full list of places where you can watch and listen if you want to interact with us guests or other podcast listeners you can follow us on twitter and please leave us a review on itunes it helps people find the show and we are always happy to read them so thanks so much and we look forward to being back next week

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