NFTs, Art, and the End of the World – Draftsmen S3E03

[Intro] Stan: Hey guys… Just a quick disclaimer 
before we start – we are not registered   investment advisors, everything 
we say is our opinion alone.   There are risks involved in investing 
in cryptocurrencies or in anything. None of the information presented here is intended   as financial advice and should not be 
relied upon for investment decisions.   Everything you're going to hear is for 
informational and entertainment purposes only. Marshall: Para pa para pa pam – para… Hey, Stan. 
So, we don't have a password for this Zoom meeting   and that doesn't worry you that there will be bad 
people who come into the room and wreak havoc? Stan: No, I have to let them in. Marshall: Oh. So, they can't just get 
in, they've got to have permission. Stan: Zoom forces you to choose 
at least one security option,   that's either a password or a waiting room. Marshall: Okay, good. Then 
we're safe. Oh, that's great. Stan: We're safe from people seeing 
what we're recording publicly. Marshall: Cheers to you on this beautiful day. Stan: Cheers. Marshall: Hey. Well, this 
is your episode, isn't it? Stan: Yeah, I’m gonna be teaching you about NFT.

Marshall: NFT. Don't tell me – Don't tell me… Stan: And blockchain.
Marshall: Let me see if I can guess what it means. Stan: Okay. Marshall: Is it Newfoundland 
territory, eastern province of Canada? Stan: You got it, that's right. Marshall: I think it's to simplify 
purchase, so it's no frills transactions. Stan: I guess, some people could – Marshall: Let me try a few – I might 
get it. North Fraternity Terrorists.

Stan: Whoa! Marshall: No? Stan: I guess all of those could be 
real opinions people have about this – Marshall: Never Fly Tanks. 
Nancy Finishes Thackeray. Stan: How long are you gonna keep 
going with this until you let it down – Marshall: until I get it. Stan: Get it, come on. You 
already know what it is. Marshall: I actually don't, I thought it was New 
Funds Transfers or something like, that. But it's   Non-Fungible Tokens.

Stan: Yeah. So, you do know it. Marshall: Let me tell you 
everything I know about it.   You told me that this is going to 
be a way that artists can control   their intellectual properties and make 
money from their intellectual properties. Stan: That is one small use case of 
the blockchain technology, correct. Marshall: Okay, yeah. I’ve got a lot to learn. Stan: As far as I know. Marshall: Then the next thing is a day 
or two later, somebody else told me   the same thing and was very excited 
about this. And then a week later – Stan: Okay. Marshall: All I heard was 
how controversial this is – Stan: Yes, is very controversial. Marshall: And how it will destroy the planet 
which in some views, would be a negative thing. Stan: I think by most views, 
that's a negative thing.

Marshall: Well, it would include 
in the destruction the people who   destroyed the planet, so 
there'd be that advantage. Stan: Correct. I think, yeah. I mean the, you 
know, the people that don't care about dying   don't care about the environment dying either. Marshall: Okay. How about if I play the student. Stan: Yeah. Okay, so there's so much to unpack 
here, Marshall. This might be a long episode.   I’m gonna try to go through these things and 
make them as simple as possible for everybody   because it is a really complicated thing. I’ve been going down this rabbit hole 
for a very long time. I’ve been following   blockchain, Bitcoin for I don't know, 
five years now or something like, that. Marshall: Wow! Stan: It's evolved a lot, it's always 
changing and it's very complicated   and it could be dangerous for people. People 
could lose money because it's so complicated.   I’m gonna save all my warnings to the end. I 
have a lot of things to say about like, if you   do plan on doing this sort of thing, there's 
a lot of things you got to be careful about.

Because it's not just kind of like, a, "Hey, 
let's go try it out and see what happens." like,   no. like, there's some – this is a thing 
that requires personal responsibility. Marshall: Well, Stan, I do 
not even know what Bitcoin   is except that it is a way of exchanging 
money that's different from the way   people exchange money. I’ve never used 
Bitcoin, I just don't know about it. Stan: First of all, the main topic here is 

Blockchain is the new technology   that's been around for a long time. Along 
with that, come a lot of implications. It's kind of like, the internet, was a 
new technology and from the internet,   you got all these other things that you can go 
down – all these other rabbit holes of what the   internet is, what's possible with the internet. 
Okay? That's kind of the same thing here. NFTs are one way you could use blockchain,   currency is another way you could use 
blockchain. There's many implications,   people are gonna just get really creative 
here and it's gonna keep evolving. The beliefs are polarizing. Some people believe 
that it is amazing, it's the next great thing. It   has the power to change the fabric of our society 
and bring power back to the people, equalize.

You   know, bring back classes. you know, the separation 
of classes and wealth and all that stuff. And then some people believe 
it can cause World War III,   and that it is a pyramid scheme, and that it could 
destroy the environment, okay? So, there's these   very polarizing things about this technology and 
so either way, this is a very important thing – Marshall: Indeed. Stan: That people need to start 
researching and participating in. Marshall: Well, with an introduction like that, 
you've hooked me.

You have told me, you know,   before the internet, if we could have known 
what was going to happen with the internet,   we would have seen all sorts of horrible things 
that would happen with it which have happened. And we've seen all sorts of things that – 
all sorts of stuff was going on that could   be kept in the shadows, that could 
no longer be kept in the shadows.   So, there's – yeah. You have 
definitely piqued my curiosity. Stan: And I want to say that both sides of 
this controversy, of this debate, are right.   They both have things that they are right about. 
And then there's a lot of uncertainty on both   sides about how will this evolve. Sometimes 
this debate it's like, there is no answer yet. Marshall: Okay. Stan: So, first of all, I want to briefly 
summarize what we're going to talk about   because some people listening have probably 
already started doing some research and it's   confusing.

You've been hearing words like, 
blockchain, NFTs, Smart Contract, Fungibility   Metaverse, digital scarcity, decentralization, 
a ledger, proof of work, proof of stake,   proof of history. And is like, all these words and 
it's like, "what does it mean?" And I’m gonna try   to cover all of those things and I’m gonna try to 
explain it to you in a way that you understand. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: So, here it goes. First, we're gonna 
start with what is blockchain because this   is really where it all begins. In a 
simple way, it is a public ledger.   Let's stop there… What is a ledger, 
right? That's another key word here   you need to understand. A ledger is 
basically where records are kept.

Marshall: Okay. Stan: If something happens, a transaction, 
you need to keep a record of that transaction.   A ledger is where that's recorded. A 
blockchain is literally just a chain of records   that something happened. The reason 
people think this is an improved   way of doing a ledger is because one, it is 
immutable, which means it cannot be changed. The reason it cannot be changed is because 
it is decentralized.

It means there's no   single authority that is writing to that ledger, 
there's literally just like thousands of computers   that are keeping these records and 
they're spread out and anybody can become   one of these – anyone can own one of these 
computers that adds to the records of the chain. And anybody can – you, right now, can go online 
and look up a transaction that happened any   point in history that was recorded in 
this chain. So, it's transparent, it's   not controlled by one authority that can, 
you know, tinkle with – tinker with it. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: There's not one blockchain, 
by the way. Bitcoin was the first,   Ethereum came around after that and made 
some improvements and now there's hundreds   of them of newer ones that are always like, 
making improvements to this technology.

And each of them is basically – it's going to be 
a separate chain but eventually, I think they're   all going to talk – and they do already actually 
all kind of intermingle and talk to each other. But they all kind of have different 
purposes because they run on different   technologies, different ways of doing things…   They do – some are better for some 
things, some are better for other things. And so quickly, I will just explain that the 
biggest difference between these is the way they   allow people to write to the ledger.   Bitcoin uses something called Proof of Work 
where the computers are all competing to solve   a really difficult cryptographic problem and the 
first one that solves it, gets to write to it. There is kind of a little hint at what we're going 
to talk about later which is the environmental   impact, when all of these computers are, you 
know, trying to solve all these difficult   cryptographic problems, you get warehouse 
sized computers with giant air conditioners   using up a lot of electricity and that's bad.

So, that's Proof of Work. Ethereum 
and a lot of others use Proof of Stake   which is more – it's not – not everybody's 
doing the work to solve a problem in order   to get access to write to the ledger. 
Now, they're just – they can write to   the ledger based on how many coins they own 
– how much share of the network they own. And then there's other ones like, 
Proof of History. We're not going   to go down that rabbit hole because that 
could be several hours of conversation   on like, technical developer stuff.

the point is, it's always changing and improving. And the problem right now, I think with the 
community that people are talking about is that   most of it is run on Ethereum. All of these 
NFTs that people are talking about, it's on   Ethereum which is not very efficient and it has 
a lot of problems and I’ll talk about them later. But the great thing is, there's a 
lot of other ones that are way more   efficient and are not nearly 
as bad for the environment. Marshall: Okay, blockchain, I 
understand is a different thing   from an NFT. Blockchain is a ledger, it's 
a record of what happens, what's an NFT? Stan: Okay, so an NFT is one use case for   the blockchain and so,- to understand it 
you need to understand a smart contract,   which was kind of like, you had Bitcoin 
which was just a bunch of transactions and   then Ethereum came around and Ethereum allowed 
you to add a smart contract to the transaction.

So, it allows you to add different things 
to it; you can attach a file to it,   you can attach a link, whatever. 
It's like a – it's little contract. So, that opens the doors now to what 
you can call 'tokenizing' something,   right? It's more than – let's 
just simplify this even more. Marshall: Okay. Stan: Basically, let's just focus 
on the artists here. What a smart   contract will allow artists to do is 
attach their art to the transaction.

Marshall: Okay. Stan: So now you actually have this thing. When 
the transaction happens, something moves from one   wallet to another. And now it's not just like, 
one Eth or one coin, now it's one piece of art. Marshall: Okay. Stan: Right? Now it's more than this 
dollar or penny or dime or whatever   you're moving. Now it's actually something. 
And so, now let's talk about "fungibility"   because NFT stands for Non-Fungible Token. And fungibility is really – 
it's just exchangeability. So,   you could call it non-exchangeable token. Marshall: Okay. Stan: And that's really what the difference is of 
what I just said. The difference between a penny   and a piece of art. A penny can 
be exchanged for another penny,   right? If you need to pay me five 
cents, you can take out any penny   from your wallet and give it to me. 
I don't care which one you give me. Marshall: Is it interchangeable in their value? Stan: Yeah, they're 
interchangeable, they're fungible. Marshall: Okay. I got it. Stan: That's what that word means.

you collect baseball cards and there's   a thousand of these baseball cards that are 
printed and they're the same baseball card,   those baseball cards are not actually 
fungible. They're not interchangeable because   as soon as they're made and as soon as they're 
spread, out they all have their own history. They all have their own quality, they age 
differently. Somebody puts them in a plastic   casing, another person puts theirs in their 
wallet and it just like, gets ruined over time.

If you own a baseball card that's 
really rare and very valuable   and you kept really good care of it, you 
don't want to exchange that baseball card   with the same one but somebody else took care 
of it not as well as you took care of it, right? Marshall: Okay, I got it. Stan: It's not exchangeable   because you could sell yours for much more money 
than this really crappy one that is ripped up. Marshall: It's unique, I’ve got it. Stan: Makes sense? Marshall: Yes. Stan: So it's not like a penny, even though your 
penny could be really dirty. Even maybe like   a car ran over it or 
something even scratched it up   but mine can be brand new, super shiny 
but they're both worth a penny, right? So, does that make it clear what fungibility is? 
Some things can be exchanged, some things cannot.

Marshall: It is honoring the 
uniqueness of this token. Stan: Exactly. Marshall: And it's owned by a particular person. Stan: Yeah. So, this ledger, the 
blockchain records who owns what.   Now, what you can have, is you can have a 
digital piece of art and you as the artist   could attach that to a token and say 
"this is the one, this is the original   JPEG of my art". Let's keep it really 
simple right now, no complex contracts. Just "there's a JPEG in this contract 
and this is the original one and I’m   gonna put it on the blockchain" 
and that's it.

It's there forever,   it's a history that this was the one I made 
– that I 'minted', I published to the chain. And now anybody can check on the blockchain 
and see that like, "yup, there's that one   that was minted". And so what that creates 
is scarcity and like, proof of ownership. Marshall: Doesn't that exist 
already? I mean, I can prove in copy,   if I copyright something or 
even if I don't copyright it,   I can show that I’ve created the – here's the 
pencil drawings, here's the dates on these files,   of these psd files that show when I 
created them and when I last altered them? Stan: Not really, no. No. That's not – a JPEG 
file, you can alter the code in a JPEG file. Marshall: If I want to sue someone who is 
using my image, I can prove that I did it   and I have the legal right to that image. Stan: Yes, absolutely. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: And that's not what this is about. Marshall: So, how is it different? Because 
it sounded like, that's what this is about.   Is that you can prove that it's your 

Well, I can prove that it's my image   and I could prove that it was my JPEG. Stan: You're talking about you, you as the 
artist, can prove that you made that art. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: But if you sell a 
"digital painting" to someone,   not the rights to it, you sell 
the digital painting itself. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: How do they prove that they 
owned it? That they bought it from you? Marshall: Because there would be a 
contract that we've both agreed to. Stan: And how can anybody see this contract? Marshall: Because somebody 
takes somebody to court. Stan:   No, I mean like, how do you prove to your friends? 
You gonna show your contract to your friends? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: No, you're not. Marshall, you're not. So,   there's the problem with digital 
art as being owned by someone,   you can't buy someone's – let me explain it 
another way and I think it'll be more clear. When you send me a JPEG by email, 
you're not sending me the same file.   The server that you're connected to 
makes a copy of it and sends it to   the server that runs my email and now 
there's a copy of that JPEG on both servers.

Marshall: All right. Stan: Right, you're not sending me the original. 
You still have that JPEG – a copy and now I have   a copy and now I could send that JPEG to someone 
else, and now they have a copy. These are fungible   things. Those JPEGs are – you can exchange 
them, they're exactly the same, doesn't matter. Marshall: They're like, pennies. Stan: They're like pennies. They're just 
JPEG files, they're exactly the same. Marshall: Okay. Stan: None of them are proof that I own it. 
When you publish that same exact JPEG as a token   on the blockchain, you are proving that token is 
the original.

Anybody could check. So, if you send   me from your wallet to my wallet that token, 
it is no longer in your wallet. As the artist   that created it, you no longer possess that JPEG 
token. It is now in my wallet. You don't have it. Marshall: Really? Stan: Anybody could scan, look at the 
ID of that token, look it up and say,   "Yeah, that's the real one". It happened 
at this moment in time, it's recorded. Marshall: It's really unique but then we have 
the same problem we had with museums before   there were good reproductions of printing. 
You'd have to go to the museum to see it.   If I own that JPEG and anybody looks at it on 
a screen, can they not simply scream grab it   or even take a picture of it? Stan: Great question.   Wonderful question, Marshall, you're 
asking such amazing questions today.

Marshall: Thanks, I’m so confused that 
I hope these are useful but that is one   reason why I’m confused is it isn't unique 
if it's showing up on everybody's screen,   everybody's seeing it which means that 
it's easy to put it in your pocket. Stan: Absolutely. So, you can take a photograph of   that JPEG – but you don't even need 
to take a photograph of that JPEG,   you could take a screenshot and it's 
literally the same set of pixels. Marshall: Yeah. So, what do we do with that? Stan: But yours is a copy whereas the original 
one is the original one that is in the ledger   that's shown and it's proved as 
the original and you are the owner. Let me give you an analogy of why 
that even matters because it's like,   well "who cares if I own it. I can still 
look at that JPEG and I can appreciate it". Marshall: That's right. Stan: That's the question, right? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: It's like, okay, so this is the best 
analogy I’ve heard so far, okay? Back to the   baseball cards – you own this $250,000 baseball 
card that is super rare and very valuable,   and people have agreed that this piece of 
paper, for some reason is worth $250,000, right? Anybody could look at this baseball 
card, anyone can take a picture of it.   I could even duplicate – replicate that exact 
same baseball card for like, a hundred bucks.   Go to a manufacturer that prints baseball cards 
and they could replicate it for like $100,   make it identical to that 
same one that cost $250,000.

But does my replica, which is literally the 
exact same thing, cost $250,000? No. Why? Marshall: Because it's not the real thing. Stan: It's not the real 
thing, it's not the original.   So, the value is not actually 
tied to the physical thing. Marshall: It's tied to the ownership. Stan: It's tied to the mental – our knowledge of 
it, our idea of what it means to own something.   This whole "value" thing is just a human 

Like, if you try to like   bring it back down to like physics, 
it actually makes zero sense. Even the real world, just the way we   value things, just begins to actually make zero 
sense. But to us, it's real. Emotions are real. You can buy fake Nikes that are made in the exact 
same warehouse as the real Nikes, the same people   made those Nikes so they're literally the same 
thing, but they're not approved by Nike, right? They were made illegally without Nike’s 
knowledge and then they were put into the market.   And if you as the owner, you got these Nikes that 
you think are worth a lot of money, and you're   like, "Man, I love these" and then you found 
out, "oh no, these are just Chinese knockoffs".

How are you gonna feel? Marshall: I can see how people 
would feel ripped off. To me,   I don't know that it would make 
a difference but I do understand. Stan: Exactly. Okay, there's 
a great point right there.   So, most people don't care about that $250,000 
baseball card, they would never pay $250,000   for that baseball card. They could just look at 
it on the internet and be like, "Cool card man!" With me, same thing – I don't 
care about those awesome Nikes,   those rare Nikes. I would never pay more than 100 
something bucks for a pair of shoes and really,   to me, they need to have some kind of 
utility to actually have $100 in value. They can't just be signed or autographed   by somebody, to me, that actually doesn't mean 
anything. But to some people, it really does. Marshall: I know. Stan: And it's the collectors. The people that 
care about this thing, to them it does. And those   are the few people that say, "yes, this baseball 
card is worth $250,000". And all you need is a few   people that think it's worth that much that want 
to own it for it to actually be worth that much.

So, the same thing goes with NFTs. You can make a 
digital copy of that JPEG and you could look at it   and you can appreciate that art but you're not the 
owner. And to most people, that doesn't matter. Marshall: Okay. Stan: They will appreciate that JPEG just as much. Marshall: That's right, to most people, I think. Stan: But to some people, it does and 
some people want to own the original   and they will pay thousands of 
dollars to own the original. Marshall: I had a friend, Stan, who 
collected vinyl albums back in the 80s   and he had a room devoted to 
all of these historic albums   and it was amazing. It was air-conditioned 
specifically to keep them in a cool dry place. And I remember asking about a particular 
album, he pulled it off the shelf,   it was still in the wrapping and I said, "Ah, 
it's still wrapped? If you play…" He said, "Oh,   I would never unwrap this. I would never play it." And I felt there's something that to me, I know 
the legitimacy of that, that you're preserving   history.

But to me, it just felt wrong to 
take a piece of music and museumize it in a   way that you're not even gonna hear the music. 
You're just gonna say it's in there somewhere. But that's me. And I know that there are 
people and that they are important people,   sometimes really are important people 
because they've got enough money   to make a difference in how things go. So, part of this is like, telling a kid about 
grown-up pleasures – the kid just can't get it   and doesn't really understand 
why all the fuss about that. Stan: Yeah, it's bragging rights. 
Somebody comes over who shares this   excitement over something with you, somebody 
who also loves baseball cards and you're like,   "Look what I got." And they're like, "Oh, 
my God.

You got that, that's amazing." And you got that, you know, you got these 
bragging rights. It's like, you're cool now.   And the thing is like, there's less chance 
of counterfeit on the blockchain than   in real life. Actually 
makes it even more valuable. Some people believe that NFTs become even more 
valuable than physical collectibles because   you can't counterfeit them, you can 
easily check what's real and what's not,   anyone can, very quickly and there's 
no damage. That's the third one, right? Physical things, you could damage 
them in a fire, you could lose them. Marshall: What about for those of us who don't 
care about bragging rights? What about the thing   that attracted me to what you were telling me 
about them a few weeks ago in the first place,   which is that it would be a way to simplify 
a claim of ownership for money rights? Stan: For money rights, what do you mean by that? Marshall: I don't care about bragging rights   but I do care about trying to collect money 
that was due to me because I owned that.

And   that can happen anyway if I’m willing to take 
the time to prove in court that this is mine. Stan: You as an artist are already protected 
by that, you don't need the blockchain to prove   to the courts that you are the artist 
that made this. This is not about   copyrights, this is about ownership of an asset. Marshall: Of an original, unique 
asset that nobody can counterfeit. Stan: Yes, there's a difference here. Marshall: So what would be the – what's 
the appeal for me and also for people   who are listening? What is it that they're 
listening to this and saying, "why would I want   NFTs?" Is it so that people who want bragging 
rights of my work, will put a lot of energy – Stan: Are you talking about for artists? Marshall: Yeah, for artists. Why 
would artists be attracted to this? Stan: Digital artists would be more attracted to 
it because finally, there is a way to sell digital   art to people – to their fans and have 
them feel like, they own an original.   I mean, it's as simple as that.

Marshall: Okay. Stan: Now, one other thing about like the reason 
why people would even want to pay money for it.   I mean one, is they actually like, the thing 
they're buying. They actually like, the artist,   they want to support the artists, they want 
to own this thing which is "collecting". The other thing which is real, is 
investing. And a lot of artists are   kind of against this thing and – but whatever. 
like, this is a real thing in the art world,   people invest their money into art and whether 
you like, it or not, it's something that happens. So like – I don't know if you know, but a lot 
of really expensive art like, the Picassos –   when people buy those for millions of dollars 
like, a lot of times they never even claim it. Marshall: How do you mean? Stan: They don't hang that – they 
don't hang that art in their house.

Marshall: They just own it. Stan: I mean, some do, of course. Yeah, some 
do. Some that really want that thing to hang   in the house so they can see it, they do, they 
hang it. But it is very frequent for people   to buy this art for millions 
of dollars simply to store   their value because it's a better store 
value than money in a checking account   which will depreciate, whereas art, 
traditionallym appreciates. It grows in value. Marshall: So, this is for investors? Stan: Yeah. So, for investors that 
want to store their value, their money   in something, they buy art, physical art, and they 
keep them in these vaults in Switzerland and they   don't actually claim the art. All they're doing 
is just – it's like, a bank account for them.

Marshall: Okay. Stan: And that's a real thing, it's an asset 
that has value. So, that's one more thing but   most artists probably listening to this don't care 
about that. But I just did want to point that out. Marshall: But what artists would care about is   that I want an investor to invest in 
my art knowing that it will go up. Stan: Yes, exactly. Marshall: And this is a way to do it 
with a digitally created work of art. Stan: Yeah. So, the blockchain, you kind of get 
it. It's a ledger, it's where we keep records.   Blah blah blah, okay? Boring stuff. Let's get on 
with the environmental impact because I think a   lot of people listening to right now kind 
of want to hear about this and I want to – The biggest thing I want to say about 
this is that the two sides – like,   I’m seeing a lot of hostility. I’m seeing a lot 
of people arguing. And it's like – you know,   how when people talk face-to-face, one-on-one, you 
tend to be a little bit more respectful, right? like, even if you disagree, you could see 
their face, if you hurt them, you feel bad.   So, you kind of tone it down a little bit.   Once you take that to like a bar and now 
you have multiple people, the one-on-one   is taken away a little bit and so now, you 
can have a bar fight and you know, a brawl.

Then you multiply that a little bit and now 
you take a thousand people on the streets or   in a stadium that are in a disagreement and 
that can escalate to a riot, right? And now   you multiply that to millions of people on the 
internet, and now it's like, a full-on war, okay? It's like, that one-on-one 
interaction and that respect for   people is like completely gone and that's 
what I’m seeing here. Is just like,   we need to realize that we – like we all 
really kind of want the same thing here. And now I’m talking specifically about artists 
with NFTs and the environment thing. So, like,   I don't think anybody's trying 
to like hurt the environment   or at least the majority here, are 
not trying to hurt the environment. And also, I don't think anybody who's 
trying to protect the environment is   trying to hurt artists' ability to make a living. Like, both of these sides want the same thing, 
they want a healthy clean environment and they   want artists to be able to make a living.

they both want the same thing but – they disagree   on a technology and we will go down a 
better path if we listen to each other. And if we understand that both sides have a point 
here and that there are improvements that need to   be made and that the concerns are real… and 
then the people who say that, you know, "hey,   what about these things that are horrible?", also 
need to realize that this is a new technology that   needs to evolve. And it will evolve and it will be 
better and you have to listen to the people who,   on that side, who are saying what is possible 
with this and what benefits it could bring.

And so, both sides need to work together   to lead to a better outcome. If you keep 
fighting, and you keep, like just trying   to piss each other off, it's going to lead to 
a worse outcome. Because you're just going to   make both sides hate each other more and 
not care about the other opinion even more. You're actually going to create people that 
are now saying, "you know, what? screw the   environment. I’m all in on this thing". And 
then on the other side, you're going to say,   "well, you know what? screw blockchain. Take 
the whole thing down, I don't care about all   the good things that can happen from it. Take 
it down because it's bad for the environment". And it's like, you just create this war   when you know, if you just have mutual respect for 
each other and you talk to each other like people,   you can actually learn some things 
and start making improvements. So, that's my big thing here, is like, both 
sides need to start listening and stop yelling.

Marshall: Well, Stan, that was – that was 
well put and if I was gonna summarize,   it would be "let's find a mutual goal that 
we both agree on and then see the problems   on either side of it to get us there". 
One is there are environmental concerns,   the other is – artists are trying to 
make a living and own what they do. Stan: Exactly. And both, I think,   can agree on that. That those are both 
good things to be concerned about. Marshall: There's another concern besides the 
environment and that's the elitism of it. Is   that it takes money. The ones with the most money 
are the ones who are most able to make money. Stan: Oh yeah, absolutely. So, the 
elitism thing is, I think, connected to –   I saw a post, and I think a 
lot of people are sharing it,   it's about how the whole NFT thing 
for artists is like a pyramid scheme.

They listed all the things 
that the SEC says is a sign   of a pyramid scheme, right? And there are 
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 things that the SEC says – Marshall: Yeah, the characteristics 
of a pyramid scheme. Stan: I’ll quickly read them off and I’ll go 
through them one by one, because these are the,   like I think, big concerns here. Number 
one: there's no genuine product or service.   Number two: promise of high returns in a short 
amount of time. Number three: easy money,   passive income. Four: there's a buy-in required   (You have to put in money to make money). 
Five or six, wait, 1,2, did I skip? Oh, I think there's seven. Who cares about the 
numbers. There's a buy-in required and then   another one is recruitment. So, it's like, 
you're insulted for not being part of it. Interestingly, I actually 
looked up the actual list   on SEC and the Tweet that people put out, say that   you know, NFTs check all the boxes but then they 
left out two of the things that the SEC listed.   So, I don't know, it doesn't actually check all 
the bug and so, I do want to point that out.

There are two missing from the Tweet and those two 
are no demonstration of revenue from retail sales.   So, it doesn't check that box. And complex 
commission structure, and it's not complex at all. So, let's go through the ones that it does   check because I think they're actually 
really good – really important concerns. Marshall: Okay. Stan: The first one is "no genuine product or 
service". The counter argument that I’ve seen   to that is like, "why isn't digital art 
a genuine product?" And then also like,   the service that you're getting is the 
transfer of authentic digital ownership. The next one was "promise of high 
return in a short amount of time".   And absolutely, like – this is one 
of those warnings that I want to give   to artists is that like – or anybody who's 
like, trying to buy crypto currency, right? Currency is not NFTs, currency is money. 
It's another form of – another way to use   the blockchain.

And people who are putting money 
into this because they're hearing how other people   are making a fortune off of it, if you're doing 
this for the short term, you will probably lose. It is very volatile. This is not a mature market. 
When people give investment advice online, people   say, like, "watch out". like, if you're doing for 
the short term, you better know what you're doing.   You're not gonna make a buck. So, the promise of high return in a 
short amount of time as an argument,   I think it's really only the media that's 
making that promise and so we gotta watch out   for who we're listening to. It's not like, 
there's some central pyramid of scheme authority   that's like promising this stuff.

It's more 
about like – the general public is just like,   seeing people making money and then they 
come to the conclusion that there's a lot   of money I can make and then they don't do the 
research. They enter and they lose money, okay? That's a real thing that 
can happen. You could lose   a lot of money. It's not a short-term strategy. Marshall: Okay. Stan: You put in $1,000 and Bitcoin the next day 
drops 30% in value, which it does all the time.   You just lost $300 in a day, right? And so, it's 
a much better long-term strategy, is what people   say.

Because over time, you know, Bitcoin is like, 
this, but over time it's consistently growing. It's very steadily growing, it's just like 30% up   30% down. 40% up, 30% down. 40% up, 
you know, what I mean? It's like, ugh. Marshall: Okay. I got you. It's a 
person who gets ill every other week   and then casts manic highs every 
other week but they live to be 90. Stan: Yeah, okay.

Yeah, sure, there you go. Marshall: Don't gamble on a two-year-old 
because their moods change constantly,   gamble on someone who's 
proven themselves responsible. Stan: Sure. Marshall: Okay. Stan: Yeah. Easy money, passive income. Passive 
income is the other check of a pyramid scheme.   Yeah, agreed. There's a lot of, like hype around 
and how like Bitcoin is growing so much. Well,   not just Bitcoin, like all the blockchain 
coins are growing so much and you can make   so much money. And this literally just 
like happens every four years, okay? There's a cycle where it's like,   Bitcoin or Ethereum, all these coins they just 
like, shoot up 1000% in price.

And everybody   who is not participating in the space for 
the past four years starts hearing about it   because it's like this crazy thing that just 
happened, and all these people made money. And so they have FOMO, which is Fear Of Missing 
Out, right? And so they start jumping in   and that makes the price go up even higher 
and everyone's like, "what's going on!"   And then, all of a sudden, it's way overvalued,   right? Because all the hype just like made it 
go way too high and then it just collapses. And then people are pissed because they didn't 
get their short-term gain. And then people forget   about it for four years, right? But the people 
that are in there for a long time were still there   and it's slowly getting back and then all 
of a sudden four years later," boom! Oh,   again. Oh, my God, It grew another 1000%" and 
then people come back into the space and then   they get pissed.

And it's the same cycle 
literally happened like five times already. Or I think it's four? I think four 
cycles. And so, the "easy money"   is just this perception that because you hear 
about Bitcoin for six months every four years,   and then you forget that like, 
well, the four years in between   was not easy money. It was a slow 
investment over a long period of time. So, that's – yes, agreed. The media, the hype 
gives us this perception that it's like, this easy   money. Be careful, it's not. Passive income, so 
this is a big one. So, with NFTs, these platforms   that allow you to sell NFTs, they say that you 
can do resale. You can get resale royalties back. So, every time your art, your digital art   sells again after you've sold it, you get 
a royalty actually from that sale. So,   let me explain, give you an example. You sell your 
painting for $1,000 today and then that person   sells it 10 years from now when you're a bigger 
– when you're a bigger artist, bigger name for   $100,000, right? Because you have a much bigger 
collector base, your stuff is worth more money.

Well, now you're gonna get a 10% commission off 
that $100,000 and you get $10,000 back and so,   you made actually ten times more 
than you did in the original sale.   And then if that person then sells it for $1005, 
it only appreciated a little bit. Only $5,000   more. Well, now you still get ten thousand, 
what? 10,050 or something dollars again. And so, if it changes hands a bunch 
of times in a short amount of time,   you are actually going to make a bunch 
of money from all those re-sales. And if you have a lot of artwork 
floating around like that, potentially,   you're constantly making resell royalties. So, that's kind of the "promise" that these 
platforms are making and one thing that is   important to keep in mind is it's – right 
now with the technology, it's only really   possible if it resells on that same platform. If somebody takes your NFT to a different 
platform, it's not – and that resell   royalty is not supported by the other 
platform, you actually don't get anything. So, it's a misconception and it's like, 
"yeah, it sucks".

Like, people just don't   read into this stuff and these platforms don't 
do enough to actually explain how this works. So, very legitimate concern and 
artists need to know about it.   What I think is gonna happen is 
that as these platforms mature and   they start working together, there's 
going to be standards in the industry   and every platform is going to start supporting 
the same metadata of royalty structures. Marshall: Okay. Stan: So it's like, if you transfer 
your NFT from one platform to another   and there's a resell royalty attached to it,   the other platform will still honor that 
resale royalty and do the same thing.

So, they're all going to have these standards. 
And the platforms that don't follow those   standards are going to be known and people 
are just not going to put their stuff on it. Marshall: So, right now, one of the concerns   is that there's a tendency for 
this to prey on the ignorant. Stan: Kind of, yeah. And I’m not sure if they're 
actually trying to prey on the ignorant or if   they're just trying to create standards that will 
benefit the artist. There's two angles to this. Marshall: Okay, I got you. Stan: Right? And I’m sure that some platforms 
probably are trying to prey on the ignorance   and some are probably just like, "well we 
want to add resell royalties so artists   could make more money". So, there's 
like, a good and a bad side to it. But the point of it is like, "well, let's 
push for standardization of this stuff"   because when it's standard then 
it's not even a problem any more. Marshall: Okay. Stan: Moving on to the next 
point – buy-in required. Okay,   the gas fees.

Have you heard of Gas Fees? Marshall: No. Stan: Okay. Marshall: I haven't heard of any of 
this. I am your kid who doesn't know   and it's, "Pap, tell me again about 
NFTs and blockchain technology." Stan: Okay, Gas Fees. So, this is more, 
literally just with Ethereum pretty much.   Which is the main blockchain that NFTs 
are currently sold on. It's congested. Ethereum does not allow for a lot of transactions 
every second and so, the more demand there is   for running a transaction, the 
more it costs – the more reward   these validators are getting – the miners 
are getting for approving transactions. And so, like if you want to run a transaction 
through the system, you're just gonna have to   pay more than the other person that wants to 
run a transaction, right? Makes sense, kind of? It's just kind of a weak point in the technology. 
It's like nobody's trying to prey on anybody.

It's   just that like, when the technology's limited 
by how many transactions it can run, well,   now there's too much demand and very little supply 
and that's just like basic economics, right? Prices just skyrocket and in order to just like 
publish an NFT, it costs you $50. Just to publish   it, not even to sell it. Just you publish it. 
And then when someone wants to buy it from you,   well, now they have to pay a Gas Fee 
as well. Another $50 or whatever it is. Marshall: Why is it called a "Gas Fee"? Stan: Because in order to like drive from 
one place to another, you have to pay gas. Marshall: I see. Stan: So in order to move this NFT 
from one wallet to another wallet,   that movement requires some gas. Marshall: Okay. Stan: And the "Gas Fee" depends, one, 
on the gas price, which is determined   by like supply and demand. And two, 
how far you're going, kind of, like,   that's the analogy. It's like, if you 
have to go farther, you need more gas.

And so, the complexity of the smart contract   might require more gas. And so NFTs have 
a smart contract in them. And the more   complex that smart contract is, the more 
gas you're going to need to get to it. And right now, the biggest problem isn't that 
these smart contracts are too complicated,   it's just that the gas price is really high 
because there's just congestion in the system. Marshall: Okay. Stan: The like, buy-in required, yes, but it's 
only on Ethereum. Like these newer blockchains   like, Solana which I’m invested 
in, I’ve invested my money into it,   Solana allows for currently 
50,000 transactions per second. Marshall: This means it's cleaner? Stan: No, that specifically doesn't mean 
it's cleaner but it is a lot cleaner.   It is a lot cleaner because 
of other things but, no. The speed actually does – 
I don't think is related.   All it really means is that 
there's no congestion in the system   so there's no gas fees. Like, with Solana, 
I think it's something like, 0.00001   penny per transaction. So, if you want to publish 
an NFT, you're literally paying like, nothing.

So, there is no gas fee. So, like, this whole 
gas fees thing, it's an Ethereum problem. Marshall: I see. Stan: I think the solution for this, 
like the thing people need to focus on   together as artists, because artists don't 
want to pay $50 to post their NFTs, and for   the environmentalists who want to, you know, help 
the environment, they need to focus on cleaner,   more efficient blockchains and push 
these platforms to support them.   And not just rely purely on Ethereum which 
is the oldest smart contract blockchain. The last one was recruitment insults – you're 
insulted for not being part of it. I think   the counter argument is that the 
insults are coming from both sides.   Like, it's just hostility on both ends. Like, 
it's kind of an interesting point to make here   that's like, I was insulted for not being 
part of the community but like, but you just   insulted the community for even existing.

So, of 
course, they're going to insult you back, right? So, both sides here are just being   very immature. Stop insulting each other. 
Yeah, so that's the whole pyramid scheme – Marshall: Response, yeah. Stan: That's the response, is that 
like, a lot of these concerns are real   and a lot of the counter 
arguments to them are also real,   and there needs to be progress that needs to be 

And let's do that, let's make that progress. Marshall: I want to see if I’ve got my 
head around the takeaway that's important.   And the first thing I’m getting out of this 
is that it's more complex than I had any idea.   And one way it's complex is that 
there's different parts to it. That there is blockchain technology and there are 
multiple kinds, some more destructive, some less   destructive. And that there are NFTs which are 
trying to solve a problem, but right now what   people are seeing is that they create problems or 
at least the blockchain technology that they do.

They're trying to solve the problem 
of ownership of what I do digitally,   but they're creating other problems like, 
elitism and environmental destruction. And so, to look into this, which is a melee 
of complexity, it could help to pull the parts   apart and say "here's the culprit, here's where 
the problem is, here's where several things that   relate together create a problem that we would 
not have known from any one of them individually". The main thing I’m getting out of this, 
Stan, is that this is much more complicated   than I knew and that I don't yet have a 
grasp. Right now I feel like when you have   an older sibling who really wants to get 
involved in something, playing football. Football is great, you get a chance 
to exert energy, it's good exercise,   it's rough and tumble. I’m young my 
body wants to go into conflict but   look at the knee injuries and the 
head injuries and everything else.

And there just came a point where I 
thought, "I don't want to play football".   It's just there's too much risk with it, 
but I didn't doubt the excitement of it. So right now, I feel so   alienated by the complexity of what's going on 
with this that I want to wait and see what comes   of it. But while waiting, it means that I’m 
not really contributing anything to whether   this needs to be championed, destroyed or worked 
with to be adjusted into something that's better. Stan: Yeah. AD: Are you feeling down, worried about the 
future, struggling to sleep at night. If   you're feeling stressed or anxious, you might 
consider trying out my sponsor, BetterHelp. BetterHelp provides you with personalized online 
counseling that's convenient and affordable.   Best of all, you can talk to a professional 
counselor over video phone, text or chat. Convenience really is a huge part of why 
so many people choose BetterHelp. It's very   reassuring to know that when you need someone 
to talk to, they're only just a click away.

Plus, BetterHelp does everything they can 
to match you with the perfect counselor by   assessing your needs and at a rate 
that won't destroy your wallet. With large network of counselors across 50 states, 
there's always someone waiting for your call.   So, how much is BetterHelp? The cost of 
counseling ranges from $60 to $90 a week   based on your location, preferences 
and therapist availability.   And you can cancel your membership 
at any time for any reason. Right now, all Draftsmen listeners 
get 10% off your first month   by visiting our sponsor at Join over 1 million people who have taken   charge of their mental health. Again, 
that's Ad: Netflix, Disney+, Hulu – 
streaming services are great   if you want to be entertained. But 
if you want to stimulate your brain,   I’m here to tell you about the Great Courses 
Plus, today's sponsor for this episode.

If you've been listening to this podcast, you 
know, I love learning about my favorite topics.   And literature, history, psychology 
and film are all subjects that the   Great Courses Plus has a near endless 
supply of new material to absorb. They offer subscribers access to thousands 
of video lectures on virtually anything that   interests you. One course that I’ve really 
enjoyed more than once is Robert Sapolsky's   "Being Human, Life Lessons" 
from the Frontiers of Science. It's only 12 lectures but every one of them is 
fascinating. If you want to check out that course   or the countless others that they offer, go to 
the Great Courses plus today. They have a 14   day free trial you can start with and if 
you want to continue with their courses,   they're giving all Draftsmen listeners a limited 
time offer to save 20% off an annual membership. That deal is only available 
through our special URL, get   it by going to Once again, that's This is Marshall, I’m hosting a 
composition follow-up on Monday   April 26th. It's free for anyone, 
even if you didn't take the course,   but space is limited and you need to 

Go to for details. Marshall: Okay, so the smart contract idea   it's a non-controversy if there's no damage 
to the environment or so little to not care. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: And there's across-the-board access to 
it like there is to using the internet that is   not just for the elite. Are those the two – those 
are the two big issues that are blocking this… Stan: Yes.

The third one is that 
there's like it costs money to get in to   like, pay to play sort of thing. 
Which is like, the gas fees. Marshall: Which is elitism. You still have 
to – if you're going to have the internet,   you still have to have a computer. You 
still have to buy – there's a way in,   but it's much more leveled out that 
only the "elite" get to do these things. Stan: And already there are solutions and 
blockchains that are saying that you could   mint an NFT for pretty much no cost.

There is 
no elitism, you know, you don't have to pay to   play. Once it's easy to do that for artists, 
I don't see what anyone will complain about. So yeah, the environment, the 
elitism and the pay-to-play. Marshall: And that's part of the elitism. So, I – Stan: Yeah, it's part it. Marshall: Yeah, now I understand. Now, 
if those were not issues, then we'd say,   well, then why would I even be a – 
so what? I wasn't going to damage the   environment one way and I’m not going 
to damage the environment this way and   anybody can get involved with 
this, I want to get involved in it. It seems like, it's to say, here's what I created 
digitally and there is no question that I own it.   It gives it an extra value so that people want to 
collect it and also it makes – it makes collecting   simpler and easier, I assume, than 
having to go through the courts? Stan: Yes, exactly.

So, yeah, the simpler 
and easier is a very good point there.   Because if you want to sell your baseball card, 
like, first you need to somehow prove to your   buyer that the one you have is not a fake. So, you 
need to get it, like inspected by some house that   inspects and approves card and you 
know, says "yep, this is real". And then you go on eBay or 
whatever and you sell it.   And then you usually give a pretty big 
royalty and then you have to ship it,   and you have to probably insure that 
shipment if it's a really valuable card. And all of this like takes a lot of time 
and effort and a lot of cost. So it's like,   well in a way, is that elitism? In order to sell 
a real thing, you have to do all of this stuff? Marshall: Some people would define it as 
such and other people wouldn't, and yeah,   I don't know. Yeah, everything has a price. Stan: Right, exactly.

Just like, what 
is currently happening with NFTs – some   people will define it as elitism and some 
people are just defining it as like, – Marshall: Responsibility. Stan: Economics – responsibility and, 
you know, technical challenges. like,   one reason some people can't get in is like they 
don't understand the technology and how it works. And so it's like you don't know how to do it. 
So, one argument about this whole elitism thing   is that like the platforms are – a 
lot of these platforms are curating,   right? They only select which artists they 
want to accept into their platforms, right? So, that that's elitism, right? Like, you know, 
"you're not allowed in.

You can't participate".   But it's not that the blockchain itself is 
behind closed doors and you can't participate.   It's that you can't participate in this platform 
that simplifies the process of making an NFT. It's a curated site that it's kind of like, 
a gallery really. All it is a gallery that   connects you to the buyers. And so, it's 
like – it's kind of the same thing as saying   "I can't get into that gallery in New 
York. It's elitism because they're   curating and they won't let me sell to these 
customers that are buying from that gallery". But people don't say that, 
right? I don't think they say it   because you could still sell your 
physical art to whoever, right? You don't need to be part of the gallery to sell 
paintings. You could find your own collectors   and you could use social media, and you could 
grow a following and sell directly to them.

So, it's not like it's closed door. 
It's not like art sales are closed   off just because this one gallery wants to 
only have 10 artists in their collection.   So, the same thing applies to the 
platforms – all they do is they   provide a service which makes it easy 
to mint your NFT to the blockchain. You could still mint your NFT to the blockchain 
without the platform, you could do it on your own.

Marshall: If you knew how. Stan: The problem is, if you knew how to code, 
right? It's all code. You just like send this   thing to the network. But like you have 
to learn something to do that. You have   to understand how it works. So, you 
know, just like you would have to do   something to sell your art to a collector 
on your own – You have to grow a following,   that takes a lot of time. And you have 
to figure out how to market your stuff. Like, it's not free money. Like it's not a 
thing that you're guaranteed like success with.   You have to work.

You have to understand 
how things work in order to drive   and to make sales, to find collectors and to 
publish your thing in this new technology. But, if you don't want to learn 
and you want to be part of the   platform, that does it for you – well, now you 
have to follow their rules. Does that makes sense? Marshall: It does make sense but you're also 
curing me of any interest in pursuing NFTs.   Because I feel like it opens a world of complexity 
of need to understand, of "I don't really want to   start a restaurant because I know some people 
have started restaurants and I know how much   work there is involved in it".

And yeah, some of 
them do really well with it, but it's not for me. Stan: Good, Marshall, I’m glad. I’m 
glad because now anybody that wants   to go in it for an easy buck hears this and 
says, "Oh, I don't want to put in the work"   and now they're not going to waste 
their time to make an easy buck. Marshall: Good. Stan: Things in life take effort.   Oh my God! Don't do this if all you're doing 
is trying to make some money very short term.   This is a real thing. You're 
not going to start a restaurant   because it's an easy buck. It's really hard. Marshall: It is really hard. Stan: It's very, very difficult. 
You're not going to become an   artist because it's a way to make an easy buck. Marshall: I should have used that as an 
example instead, is that I want to be an   artist so that I can make a lot of 
money just for drawing a few pictures. Stan: Yeah, this doesn't change anything.

do this long term, like, once this crazy hype   settles down, the technology will still exist 
and then in order to really be successful on it,   you're still going to have to be a good 
artist that people want to buy their work. Like, it doesn't change anything. All it 
does is just slightly improve the means of   transacting in the art. Marshall: But I got the impression that 
it would greatly improve the means – Stan: It could, greatly, it could.

Marshall: Okay. I’m seeking an 
analogy to help my kid mind. Stan: For smart contracts or for blockchain? Marshall: For blockchain. And here's the best I   can do and I know that this analogy 
is not going to fit in some ways. But you've got engines and some 
engines are run on really dirty fuel,   some of them on cleaner fuel, some among 
sunlight and you're looking for the things   that will do the least amount of damage to 
the environment, and also yield a product. And that's why NFTs can be something that 
is fueled by or put into any one of varying   blockchain technologies. Stan: Yes. The ones that support smart contracts. Marshall: Okay, well this helps – Stan: Bitcoin, as from what I know, it 
does not actually support a smart contract. Marshall: There's a whole spectrum of good and 
bad ways to do this, is what I think I’m getting.

Stan: Yeah. So, Bitcoin because it's so dirty, 
because it requires so much electricity.   Typically it's considered not to be something 
that you're going to run a lot of transactions on. In fact, it only supports like, nine   transactions per second or something like. 
It's like, a ridiculously low amount.   Like, imagine if we were trying to process, 
you know, buy coffees with Bitcoin. Like, it would only support nine 
people per second to buy a coffee. Marshall: What a rough world that would be. Stan: It's not plausible, that 
would suck. So, it's very slow.   Bitcoin is not meant to be that 
and so people think of it as like,   gold. Where people will just kind of store 
their value and not transact very often with it. But because of – it is actually – I think people 
think of it as something that's a lot more secure,   because the way it works. Let 
me give you a different analogy.

So the internet is the blockchain – Marshall: Okay. Stan: And an NFT is a post on a 
social network, right? It's like,   it's just one small thing 
you can do on the internet. Marshall: Okay. Stan: The internet is 
something that allows much more   than just posting on a social network as you know. Marshall: But there's this 
one thing that you can do. Stan: But there's that one thing and that one 
thing is actually really cool and very powerful,   right? You can post to a social network. Like,   that alone now allows you to do so much. You 
can communicate, you could sell, you can market. I mean, a post is a very simple part 
of the internet but it's not lame. Marshall: It's changed the world.

Stan: Yes, exactly. For good and for bad. You 
could say that posting on social networks has   done some real damage to our society, our culture. 
And it also has greatly improved it in other ways. Every new technology comes with bad and 
good and hopefully, you know, this is a very   big conversation that hopefully technology leads 
us to better quality of life rather than worse. You know, you can ask like, you know, do you want 
to be riding a horse right now or would you rather   ride your car? And it's like, yeah we went 
through 100 years or so of really dirty cars   but now hopefully, it's going to evolve 
to be cleaner energy and you know,   we'll see how long it takes us there. But technology goes through some bad 
times and then in the end, we solve   those things and quality of life is better. 
And you know, now instead of 50 million   people dying from pandemic, it's how many 
has it been, two million some? What is it? Marshall: I don't know the latest numbers.

Stan: I don't know the latest 
numbers. Yeah, so technology improves,   generally, I believe quality of life. 
But there are bad things and they need   to be talked about and they need to be 
solved and worked on all the time. So. Marshall: Okay. Stan, where do we go from here? Stan: With new technology, there's good 
stuff and there's bad stuff, right? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: And we should try to decrease the 
bad stuff and increase the good stuff. Marshall: Well, great attitude. Stan: And I think that opting out is an option 
for some people that are scared, they don't know,   they don't feel comfortable with technology. 
Opt out, don't go in and get hurt with it.

But opting out because you're against the   technology itself, I feel is not 
the best strategy to make a change. Marshall: Why? Stan: You're gonna end up being the 
grumpy old dude that was left out,   that didn't participate and knows nothing about 
it. And you know, as this technology evolves and   everybody who participated grows with it, you 
who opted out because you didn't agree with it,   are now left out and you're old and grumpy 
and have no power to change anything.

If you go in and you learn as much as 
possible about it and you participate   in the creation of it, you have a 
much bigger impact on where it goes. Marshall: It's like, opting 
out of voting. That if you   opt out of voting, you have no right 
to complain about what has happened. Stan: Exactly. If you opt out, you have 
no right to complain. So, go in there,   learn as much as possible how it works and what 
are real things we can do to improve this thing. Right now, you could say you can 
go to the platforms and you can   push them to start supporting more efficient 
blockchains that don't have these ridiculous   gas fees for artists and that are 
not this bad for the environment.

You know, do your research. Figure out what 
are these new blockchains that allow you to   post NFTs for 0.00001 penny, and that 
can scale to run the entire internet. That could do more transactions per second 
than visa can, in a cleaner way than visa does.   Like, do this research and push this 
change because it does need to happen. If you opt out and you say I’m out, 
well, then the people that don't care   about these problems are the one making 
the decisions. Like, what does that do? Marshall: So there's a proactive 
way to be involved which is   to make the investment and support 
those who improve the system? Stan: Yes. Because here – look. Listen like, 
these platforms right now, they're the ones   kind of empowered to allow people to post NFTs. 
Who are they going to listen to? The customers,   the people who are on their platform. Not the 
people who are yelling to get rid of the platform.

They're not going to listen to those 
people, they're not their customers.   They're going to listen to 
the people that support them. Marshall: Okay, that makes sense. You've got to 
be a participant in this country to vote in the   elections. The ones that are going to make 
a difference are the ones who are involved.   I think I get that. I mean, I want to 
opt out because I just don't know enough. Stan: Yeah and that's totally fine. Marshall: I’ve never played the lottery 
and I’m just not the type to get involved – Stan: It's not a lottery. Marshall: – in a pyramid scheme. Stan: Come on, stop it. Marshall: Because the promise of quick 
riches just does not grab me like, it grabs   some people. But that's not opting out. It's 
opting out partly because I just don't know   enough to know what to think, 
that's why I’m listening to you. Stan: So one thing we were talking about is how 
like, ownership is a thing for people that want to   feel like, they own that one scarce 
thing, right, and they feel special.   But for most people, it's more actually about 
the utility of most things they buy, right? Marshall: How do you mean? Stan: You want to actually do something with it.

Marshall: Yes. Stan: I’ll give you several examples. Shoes. You 
want to wear shoes because they actually serve   a utility, they have a purpose. They keep 
your feet warm, they keep your feet clean,   they keep your bones healthy while 
you're running or whatever it is, right? They keep your skin from getting scratched up 
while you walk, they have a purpose.

And so we pay   you know, anything from $20 to $150 for a 
pair of shoes simply for the utility of them. Marshall: Okay. Stan: Depends on what you really want 
from those shoes. Anything beyond that,   is you're no longer paying for the utility. Like,   if you pay $500 for shoes, now you're 
paying for like, the brand, right? It's more for just like, I want 
bragging rights that I own this like,   specific shoe. Yeah, so the other example with,   other than shoes, let's say with artists is 
like, prints. It's not the original piece of   art but it's a print of it, it's a copy and that 
does serve a utility for most people that buy it. Like, you know, you do hang it on your wall and 
you do like to look at it. It gives you pleasure   just by seeing it, it decorates your house,   whatever it is.

And you could do that 
for just like, you know, a $20 print. Most people would do that, they'd buy prints 
to hang on their wall, right? It does serve   a purpose. It's not about the ownership in that 
case, right, because you don't own the original.   You just have this thing that decorates 
your wall, that's there's a function to it. How that applies to NFTs is that there actually 
will be a utility or could be a utility in NFTs.   This is kind of exciting. I always like to look 
to the future and it kind of, it excites me. Do you know, what the Metaverse is? Marshall: No. What is the Metaverse? Stan: Have you seen the movie or 
read the book Ready Player One? Marshall: I know of the book and the 
movie and have a friend who helped   help storyboard it but no, I don't 
know enough of the story so help me.

Stan: Okay. So, the Metaverse is 
basically kind of like, a digital world   that, you know, in Ready Player One there's 
like, dystopian future where most people live   actually in like, a VR world not in the real 
world. Because the real world is so messed up. Hopefully we don't get to a dystopian future 
but like, the Metaverse is something people are   working on, really excited about. It's like, 
a world you can enter and there's real things   happening in there. You could you trade real 
things, NFTs, you have a player that can die   and communicate and own things like, 
land and build structures and do things.

You know, have a museum where you show your 
art. It's like, a real world but it's digital. Marshall: So you could be 
rich or poor or privileged or   not privileged in this virtual world. Stan: Yeah. It's like, the same world. Marshall: It is real even though 
it's virtual. You really do have   those privileges in that world or not. Stan: Yes and the only reason it's real is 
because the people who participate in it   all agree that it's real. Marshall: They take it seriously. Stan: Yeah. So, if you don't participate in 
it because you think it's not real, well,   to you it's not real.

Just like, 
you could say that our real world   is not real and say I don't want 
to participate any more. Yeah. Marshall: It's the reason that ownership and law 
and geographical boundaries which aren't real,   are real because – Stan: Exactly. Marshall: – they're, yeah. It's 
the rules that we live by. Yeah. Stan: Exactly. And so this Metaverse 
is basically just a digital world. And   so now comes this idea of in-game 
assets and this could be applied   to the Metaverse or just any video 
game actually. This already happens. In video games, you can buy assets. You 
could buy a weapon, you could buy a vehicle,   whatever it is and you own that now in this 
game, right? Have you ever heard of that concept? Marshall: Yes, I have heard of that concept, yeah.

Stan: Right. So, with NFTs, you have real 
ownership over these assets. Let's say you buy an   NFT Nike shoe and Nike presents you with the real 
pair of shoes and also the digital version of it.   And there's a 3D model of it and now you can bring 
it into this game and put it on your character   and now your character owns 
this rare digital asset. And people in the game see it, they scan it 
and be like, oh whoa, that's the real one.   You own the $100,000 Nikes that, you know, 
Michael Jordan used to own in this game? You know, it's this world where it's like,   hey, this one character did this thing with 
this NFT and they defeated something. They   set a new world record with this pair of shoes 
on and then they sold it and now you bought it   and now you own those pair of shoes that 
this person may set this world record in. And that those pair of shoes, even though they're 
digital, have value because they were sold to   you by this other person that did this thing 
with that specific NFT that has a specific ID.

So it's real. Like, this is 
value that the people in this – Marshall: Metaverse. Stan: – game agree. Or Metaverse or 
even just a single game, agree on that.   Like, these items have value. Marshall: That's what a Metaverse is, it's 
a world beyond this universe that you can   enter and that you take seriously, that people 
take seriously so there really are benefits. Stan: Yes. Marshall: Okay. Stan: Pretty much. But it's all – and 
that's also the concept of in-game   items, which when you apply that 
with the blockchain and now you   can own one thing in one game and you could 
now carry it over to a different game.

It's not an asset that's owned 
by the video game company,   it's an asset that's owned by you the person 
that bought it. Because it's not recorded on   the server of that video game, it's recorded 
in the blockchain which is owned by nobody. And so any video game that connects to 
the blockchain and interacts with it,   now allows you to bring in your 
own NTFs to these video games   and you have real items that you 
really own in this video game. Marshall: You get to bring 
in your valuable show horses   to the different arenas because you own them.

Stan: Exactly. Marshall: This applies to things other 
than shoes and show horses and artwork. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: This applies to 
songs and performances and   anything that can be packaged and 
called an intellectual property. Stan: Tickets to something, tickets to an event. Marshall: Oh wow. Stan: Your DNA.
Marshall: Your DNA? Stan: What if you sell your DNA sequence? Marshall: And people have been 
selling their DNA sequences, right? Stan: Have they? Oh.

Marshall: I think they have. I think that 
when you when you when you sign the contract   for ancestry and those kind of things, I’m 
told that you are signing a contract that is   giving up the rights to your or sharing 
the rights, I’m not sure how it works. But if that's the case – Stan: Yeah, interesting. So, I don't know. I 
mean these are just like, crazy ideas. Like,   what, okay what if I sell my DNA now. It's like, 
you pretty much – somebody else pretty much   owns me, my structure.

It's like, my structure is 
gonna be worth less than Barack Obama's, right? Like, somebody would pay a lot more for his DNA.   The reason I brought it up is 
just like, there's literally like,   an infinite amount of use cases for this. It's 
what, you know, it's what you can come up with. Marshall: Yeah. When the iPhone 
came out, everybody was saying,   'Wow.

All sorts of things will come out of this' 
but that nobody knew there'd be millions of apps   to solve all sorts of problems with a smartphone. And the fact that it's sensitive to gravity,   well how can we use that? And so on. So, 
it's unpredictable where this will go. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: I’ve got another 
question. Is there any chance   that this will go away? That it's defeatable 
if people say we don't want it. Will it be?   Can it go away? Can it 
disappear? Or is it inevitable? Stan: So, I don't know. I’m not 
an expert in that, specifically.   There's a lot of like, political stuff with that, 
you know.

I’m not an expert in that but like,   I can tell you what I’ve heard so far. Is 
that because it's so decentralized and it's   spread out throughout a lot of the world, it is 
going to be very difficult to make it go away. Marshall: So it's like, once nuclear technology 
is understood, once fission can be done,   it's going to be done. It's just if you can make 
laws against it, but it is not going to mean that   nobody's going to use anything, to do anything 
nuclear from now on because we decided against it. So it's there is a way in which 
it is the cat is out of the bag,   Pandora's Box has been open. 
Now what do we do from here. Stan: Yeah, the biggest threat right 
now to it is countries just making like,   Cryptocurrency illegal. And I think China 
already did, if I understand correctly.   But like, it didn't go away just 
because China did it, you know. And if the United States makes it 
illegal, it's still not gone.

Like,   there's still a huge part of the world 
that's still going to be like, well, we like. So I think that the countries that make it illegal 
will eventually probably make it legal again   and then they're just gonna miss out on a 
huge technological advancement and they're   not gonna be the big players in the game and 
I think the United states understands that. So far from what I’ve heard people saying, 
who are in power, who have a lot, you know,   a lot of power to make these changes and to 
convince politicians, they're saying that the US   needs to try to be the leader in the space instead 
of trying to like, outlaw and bring it down. And I, like, I don't see any sign 
of the United States outlawing it.   Like, it's gonna be very difficult. Like, 
there's so many big institutions now coming in   into cryptocurrency specifically.

Like, what 
happens if the United States all of a sudden   outlaws and there's already trillions of 
dollars in it. Like, what does that mean? And it's legitimate money that's in it as well. 
It's legitimate money that we're already paying   taxes for. Like, you know, like, anybody 
that owns crypto is paying taxes for that   crypto. So, it's like, if the government is 
collecting taxes on it and then they say,   oh no, this is illegal. Like, are 
they gonna return all that tax money? Right? Like, it's gonna be – it's very 
difficult. It's already intertwined, it's   so intertwined into the financial systems that, 
like, it's gonna be so difficult to outlaw it. I personally don't see it happening 
but I’m not an expert, so. Marshall: Okay. And I’m not only am 
I not an expert, this is so far – Stan: But I’m also not interested. Marshall: – it's so far over my head 
but it does, it does prompt questions.   Because as soon as you say, I don't see the US 
outlawing it, then my mind goes in two ways.   It goes to the benefit of that, is that they 
can embrace the technology and make it better.

The bad thing about it is that 
the money involved and saying,   no, we don't want to outlaw this, we want to 
exploit it. Is so often, money that does not have   the better interest of people at heart so 
much as they have their claim at heart. So I am aware that any direction 
you go, there will be monsters there   and that the warnings are not just to scare 
you away, although some of them are. Let's   scare them away from going there so 
that we'll go in and take that land. And also there will be opportunities 
that will make things better.   I just don't – I can't sort 
through all this and understand it. Stan: Yeah, Marshall, this topic is 
something that you really cannot grasp   in an hour or two. It is something that you 
slowly study over time and eventually you   kind of pick up on it. I mean, it's a – this is 
a technology that is all, like, already like,   there's several billion dollar companies 
running, you know, working on this stuff. Or who are billion dollar companies because of 
the technology.

It's a very complicated thing   and it's kind of like, trying to learn 
how the internet works in an hour or two. You're not gonna do it, it's difficult. Marshall: How does this relate to me or any of 
our listeners who are not that entrepreneurial   or business oriented or understanding political 
structures and technological structures?   Because this could take – this is an art form in 
itself to understand it and if I were a science   fiction writer and I was really interested 
in this, this would – you are an optimist. I don't know if you're an incurable optimist 
but you're certainly an optimist because   when you see new technology you say, 
'Wow, hey. Wow, hey, yeah, wow, hey.' And many a science fiction writer can see that 
but they can also see what horrible things would   go with this and they spend a good deal of 
their energy balancing between the dystopian   and utopian vision of where this can go and 
contriving it for they're spinning a yarn. Like, the prophets of where the world is 
going now that this change has happened.   So, but I’m not a science fiction writer and 
so I have to ask, what is, are there practical   steps to this for those of us who are hearing 
about it and wondering how does it affect me? Stan: So your question was   how does this affect me, someone who 
doesn't care about technology and – Marshall: Politics.

Stan: – and politics and money – Marshall: And business and – Stan: – and business. Marshall: – and abstract 
systems that fit together. Stan: So you're essentially asking 
me how did these running shoes   affect me, someone who has arthritis and has no   interest in exercising and actually doesn't 
even have legs. How can I benefit from them? Marshall: How do these shoes relate to 
a person who lives their life barefoot.

Stan: Wait, wait. Come on. Marshall: Well, no. Actually I do. I do care about 
making a living and I am still working to make a   living so that's what attracted me to this. Is 
that this could be a way that instead of always   working, that passive income can be part of it. 
To work and then to have something pay me money   and that not that I do it and then people just 
steal it and you never get the money from it. Is there a way that this actually 
makes a difference to artists   and people who own art piece? Stan: If that's your only reason, the 
resale royalties idea, that's literally   the only reason that you're interested in this, 
I would say it's probably not worth your effort.

Marshall: Okay. Well, then I’m gonna 
watch and see what happens. This may   not be relevant but let me tell you what 
ten years ago when vape cigarettes came in.   One guy I was working with was smoking vapes 
and I didn't know it was electronic cigarette. Wow, the steam that comes out of it is 
not nearly as cool looking as smoke.   The only thing that was the negative about it, 
is that it's giving into the nicotine addiction.   Which I’m told is not as bad for – not nearly as 
bad for you. Is the tars and all the carcinogens. So I thought that's great. That means that 
you've got pretty harmless cigarettes and then   people said no, these things ruin you. Here's 
what I thought. You go into a steam room for   a half an hour at a time, five days a week, 
do it for years doesn't seem to do any harm.

How is it that steam is gonna harm your legs? 
And then I thought, hey there's another thing.   There are companies who manufacture tobacco, 
that have gazillions of dollars that would not   want this to encroach on their territory. 
They're spinning lies against it and – Stan: Yeah, that's – Marshall: – that's what I was thinking. So, 
I think, vape, man, I might take up smoking.   And then in a few years, we started to find 
out that there were too many studies and   too much consensus among people I trusted who 
said vapes do a lot of damage to human lungs. And that was – but it took time to know 
that and I wasn't involved and I wasn't   vaping or smoking. I was just watching it and 
thinking and maybe that this was a solution,   and it one way it was and 
in another way it wasn't. So I don't know and I’ve got to reserve 
judgment until there's more data. Stan: This whole – this is a really 
bad analogy.

The vaping thing. Marshall: Well, yeah, I know. That's why – Stan: I mean – Marshall: – I know it's a bad analogy 
but it was the only thing I could grip. Stan: It's a really, it doesn't actually make 
any sense at all. I don't like, try to make   an analogy between vaping and the internet. Put 
yourself back in the 90s and make that analogy.

Marshall: Yeah, well, we might be – Stan: You can't. It's such a stupid analogy. Marshall: We might be trying 
to get more out of the analogy   than I intended. The thing I’m intending here is 
that as soon as I hear about NFTs, they're going   to make it so that you can make a living as a 
teacher and people won't steal your stuff, great. And as an artist. Really? Yeah, I’m in. 
And then in a matter of a week and a half,   if you get involved in NFTs, you are 
contributing to the destruction of this planet.   Whoa, which way do I go? And it's like, why don't you just stop right here 
and let other people figure this out because I – Stan: Yeah.

Let other people figure it out. Marshall: – can't figure out whether 
vapes are damaging or beneficial. Stan: They're damaging, Marshall. Vapes 
are bad. It's a horrible analogy, stop it.   Vapes are bad for you. Marshall: Okay, we know it now Stan: I mean, I think a lot of people 
knew it from the very beginning. I mean,   I was warning my friends from the very beginning. 
I was like, do you really know what's in it? Marshall: Yeah.

Still, when I’m really in 
the mood, a nice hot cup of something that's   steaming and to go, 'Ah'. It just seemed like, 
the you know, the concentrated version of that. Stan: Cool. Marshall: Sorry, it was a lousy 
analogy but I did my best. Stan: It's a very shallow, I think, analogy. Marshall: Sure. Stan: It's a focus on, like, this tiny piece. Marshall: Yeah. Well, no it isn't 
a tiny piece. It's the great big   division of will this lead us to a better world   or a ruined world. I mean that's how I’m 
understanding that it's being framed. And again – Stan: Oh, well. Marshall: – I don't know. I mean we've got 
the same issues with almost everything. Stan: Kind of. But like, with vaping, there was 
– it's this company that's trying to make money.   With the blockchain, there is 
no company trying to make money   from you to be involved in the blockchain.

Marshall: Well, that's where   more knowledge of the political environment 
of it. Who is against it and who is for it.   The people who are going to be for it are often 
the people are going to profit from it, the   people who are going to be against it are going 
to be people who their profits will be damaged. And so the battle becomes not ideological, the 
battle becomes simply territory for I want more   control money and a stake in this.

And being 
able to sort through are the tobacco companies   maligning vapes because it's going to hurt 
their business or is there really a danger? You just don't know when you're 
on the innocent side of it. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: As one of my friends told me this week,   he said it used to be that you had 15 minutes 
of fame in your life now you get 15 minutes of   innocence before you have to take a side on 
something otherwise the other side will kill you. Stan: Yeah. And that's kind of 
the problem isn't it? That like,   literally everything we're doing is bad. Marshall: Well, yeah. Not everything but almost 
every. You're right. Everything has some – Stan: Pretty much.

Marshall: Yeah. Every food you eat there, the 
more they study it, they're going to say it's   good for you, it's good for you. Because, woop, 
here we know it isn't good for you. And that just   the more knowledge we have, everything 
is killing us and killing other people. So I just don't know what the answers are to that.   I don't want to become Amish but I’d kind of 
like to have access to my computer and access – Stan: Yeah. Marshall: – to the things that I 
love and that I find a convenience   in, but also have a bit of a longing 
for something that does not get on this   treadmill where you have to constantly contribute 
by purchasing stuff that damages the environment. Constantly on a treadmill of 
upgrading and upgrading and upgrading,   there is something about it that I feel like – Stan: Yeah. There's obvious bad things 
for us about any kind, you know,   all these technologies. But it's like, you 
can't, I don't see how you could possibly live   on either extreme.

Because it's 
like, if you choose to be like,   the Amish and reject technology, 
and you – well, not even the Amish. Let's just go to the even more 
extreme and just say no technology,   stop progress in technology. You're basically 
saying, okay, no more medicine, because you know,   I mean medicine is improving a lot 
because of all this digital stuff.

Marshall: That's right. Stan: AI right now is solving a lot of 
really difficult problems in medicine   that humans have a really hard time solving. And 
it's like, well, that's not possible without,   like, the internet and without running these giant 
servers somewhere to process this information. The thing is like, if you choose to say no 
more technology, there's still going to be   a majority of the world that says, well, 
I’m going to use technology.

And what are   you going to do about that? Like, there's still 
going to be people destroying the environment. Like, I don't see a way out of technology. Marshall: No, I don't either. And polarizing 
it to the two extremes of zero no technology   or always on the cutting edge is helpful to 
see the most extreme black and white divisions   and say what's the advantage 
or disadvantage of each. But of course – Stan: Yeah. Marshall: – somewhere in the 
middle, leaning one way. Somewhere,   you know, this way when it comes to computers, 
this way when it comes to the clothes I wear,   this way for how I order products. Whether 
I order them locally, this way not.

Some people that I’ve known that 
introduced me to the term permaculture,   have caught my attention because it seems like, 
they are seeking together. How do we do better. But you know that this 
conversation inevitably goes   up the abstraction ladder to political systems. Stan: Yes. Marshall: You can't keep from it 
because that's the difference between   capitalism, socialism, communism. Where the laws,   who makes the laws, all of that stuff. 
It's always going to be a complex mesh.

Well, I feel adequately confused to watch 
you and other people in my life and see   where it goes and render whatever opinion I 
have on it. I hope I haven't given any opinions   during this because I really don't know what 
to think of it, but I do want to understand. Stan: The only opinions you gave is that it's too 
complicated to be involved. That was an opinion. Marshall: Too complicated 
for me to be involved, but – Stan: But that's an opinion of – your opinion. Marshall: Yeah. But I do know of some people who 
I just I think that their brains work well enough   and that I trust them ethically enough to 
where they would be ones that I’d listen to.   I’ve listened to you for a while here and I 
am interested in it because when this came up   you, like you mentioned you've 
spent years looking at this   and I haven't and I’m not likely to look at it 
closely for years because I’ve got other jobs.

But where this goes, what do we do for the 
audience? What do we do for the Draftsmen   listeners? For what we care about from them is 
that what kind of execution would you recommend   for people who oppose or embrace NFTs or 
should we find something more balanced? Stan: For the people that oppose it, I would 
say like, I said before, try to be proactive   about it. Try to jump into the belly of the 
beast and actually make a change. Go ahead. Marshall: I got a good question 
for people who oppose it. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: What would need to be different   to where you'd embrace it and limit 
it to three things if you can.

Stan: Yes, that's good. Marshall: That way you know that we're 
not playing a game of just fighting.   That we're saying if this, this and this, then 
not only will I – I will either not oppose it or   I will embrace it. And the people who are 
running with it and in favor of it and saying   I’m going to be ordering my life around 
there, what questions do we have for them. Stan: Yeah, no, that's a good place 
to start. What needs to change?   Identify first what really needs to 
change. Like, I think it's very difficult,   it's gonna be very difficult to just destroy it 
completely, okay? I mean some people – and like,   if you really still want to destroy 
it completely, go ahead keep trying.

Now what I’m gonna say is not for you.   So, for those people that want to actually make 
a change that's possible, identify what needs   to change and start trying to drive that 
change. And prioritize your actions too. Like, you can attack individual artists 
on Instagram who are selling NFTs, but   that's a waste of your time, I think. The bigger 
issue, the better use of your time is to go to   the larger institutions that have 
control to actually make a difference.

Like, if you   attack every artist that mints an NFT and then 
every artist stops making NFTs, you know what's   gonna happen? Blockchain still exists. It still 
uses the same amount of energy. You know why? Marshall: So you only hurt the artists. Stan: You're just hurting the art community. 
That's literally all you're doing,   is you're hurting the artists from 
being able to use the technology.   But the currency part of it still exists, the 
trillions of dollars of trading still exists. And so who is able to benefit from this? 
The investors, the people with the money.   So, if you're attacking the 
artists and you're saying get out,   like what's the point of 
this? That's not gonna help. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: You're wasting your time. Go to the people 
with the power to actually improve the technology   to make it more efficient. Because the artists 
have no say in that, they can't make that change.   So, stop hurting their ability to make a living.

That's my say in it. Like, I’m all for what the, 
like, what everyone's saying about it not hurting   the environment. I completely agree with that. 
And I will also align myself with that cause   and do things to make it better and push the 
technology to stop hurting the environment. Marshall: Okay. This helps me to understand why 
I was having a hard time finding a question for   people who are excited about NFTs, is that 
a person's motivation to invest in them   is not what can I do this week to help the 
environment. I know, I’ll invest in NFTs. That's not their motivation. Stan: No. Marshall: It is to benefit myself. So, 
the question for the person who's pursuing   this would be, what three common concerns 
from your critics can you take seriously   and move in the direction of not contributing 
to the things that will make things worse. It would be to listen to your critics.

can you listen to your critics and adjust   your actions. That's where I’d start anyway. Those 
may not be the best questions. I do like the one   for the critics which is let's boil it down to 
the things that would no longer be obstacles.   Since it's gonna move forward – Stan: And prioritize your actions 
to get to those goals as well. Marshall: And prioritize your 
actions is don't attack artists. Stan: Don't hurt individuals. Marshall: Don't hurt individuals. Stan: Try to target the root cause of all of 
this stuff. Okay, so that's for the critics.   That's for the critics. Now for the 
people that support it, I would say   listen to the critics because they have 
legitimate concerns. And the faster we can   get to the point where there's less to criticize, 
the faster that the community is going to grow. So it's not   a very good use of your time, people who like 
the blockchain technology. It's not a very good   use of your time to just attack the critics and 
say they're wrong and that they're stupid.

It's   a better use of your time to listen to them and 
start trying to make it go into that direction. Marshall: If blockchains are 
inevitable and they've been around   and they're here and they're not going away, 
you could liken them to sunlight. In that   you can say sunlight is the best thing in the 
world, it's the thing that all life comes from. You can also say sunlight destroys 
you, it gives you skin cancer,   you get caught in the desert for an 
afternoon, it's going to kill you. And so, at some point rather than 
angelizing or demonizing sunlight,   it would be better to understand it and why it's 
dangerous and how it could be used for good.   But that might be too big an analogy but at least 
it's helping me to understand that this is not   something that is inherently 
malicious or even beneficial. Stan: It's not, yeah. Marshall: It's something that is a tool that 
is a really pervasive big inevitable tool,   that what are we going to do with it. Stan: Exactly. Now that's actually, I 
think, a really good analogy.

Is it's   not something that's good or bad it, 
could be both. And because it's like,   decentralized, there's a lot of personal 
responsibility here that needs to take place. There's no essential authority protecting 
you from your own carelessness,   your own naiveness, naivety? Navitality? Marshall: Naivety, yeah. Stan: Naivety? Yeah. Like, that's 
the thing. Is like, if you carry cash   and you lose that cash, you know, there's 
no bank that's going to be like, oh okay,   here you go. You can have it 
back, right? You lost your cash.

It's the same thing with blockchain. There's 
no bank that's holding it for you. If you lose   your wallet address in the blockchain, you don't 
have access to it, you just lost all your money. Marshall: Well, thank you Stan, for taking 
the time to help your – a six-year-old   wouldn't understood any of this. 11 year old, 
maybe. I was a 16 year old during this and – Stan: Now you're 17. Marshall: Now, yeah. Now I’m a little smarter. Stan: Who doesn't want to become an adult. Marshall: Enough to say I’ll stick around for 
another year and watch whether I’m going to   go to college or not. Whether I’m going 
to major in one thing or another, yeah.

Stan: And then you're going to go through college 
and you're going to hate it. You're just going to   want to keep partying and being a little kid 
but then eventually, you're going to grow up   and you're going to realize that you need to 
take personal responsibility and do some things. Marshall: I will. I will 
when I’ve seen where it goes,   not I’m not going to early adopt here. 
What do you want to talk about next week? Stan: Oh geez, I have no idea. 
But can I plug something? Marshall: Yeah, go ahead. Stan: So I’m thinking of starting my own 
podcast where conversations like this will go. Marshall: Good thing to bring up right now 
because we may have some people who've stayed   all the way through this 
and they said I want more,   and a lot of people want and so they 
can they can go indulge with you. Stan: Yeah, the people that are already 
left like, you're probably not going to   like this podcast and I’m not even sure 
if I’m going to start it.

But if I do,   it'll probably be on my own personal website. 
It'll be on my, you know, it'll be my thing. And it's going to be mostly conversations that 
I personally want to have, it's not going to   be for art students. Like, this podcast is for 
people that are learning how to draw and paint. This podcast would be more for 
people who align with my interests   and then if they don't, it's really it's 
just not for you. And my interests are art,   technology, innovation, business. 
Shoot, what else is there? Marshall: Art, technology, innovation, yeah. Stan: Oh, education.

Education is another 
big one that I like and I'm thinking a lot   about. But it'll be mostly conversations. I'm 
going to bring on guests who I want to talk to. Marshall: Good, yeah. I'm glad you plugged that. Stan: Yeah. So, there you go, I 
don't know where it's gonna be. Yeah,   it's just an idea and it might not happen. Marshall: Alright. Stan: But look out for it. Follow me 
and I'll announce it if it happens. Marshall: Those of you who 
endured this, thank you. Stan: Thank you to the small minority 
of people who stuck to the end.   Thank you and I'm sorry 
for putting you through it. Marshall: Yeah, but now you know than to – if you 
see a title like what you saw this was titled.   You know, stay away.

That's for the other 
people and subscribe to that next week. Stan: Now you know better to click on titles. Marshall: Okay, see ya. Stan: Alright. Bye guys..

You May Also Like