Kevin Wad on Monero’s Liquidity

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the issue what can be done to prevent this problem the real demand for monero and the challenges of obtaining the coin itself and the effects decentralized exchanges such as atomic swaps have on the liquidity and price of monero narrow talk starts now all right hi kevin thanks for coming on man yes nice to nice to meet you where where are you located if you don't mind telling us you don't have to but if you don't mind guys paris okay awesome my uh actually my daughter my seven-year-old daughter was over for a few days on her way to poland okay with her mother she that was her request she wanted to go to she wanted to go to paris she wanted to see the eiffel tower which i thought was heavy requests for uh pretty pretty cool destination over there right now yeah just a question because i'm trying to look at you but do you have to uh do you have to look at the camera here or right here uh you mean so we make eye contact yeah i mean uh i don't know if uh we'll try to get somewhere for me try to look right into the camera right here yeah yeah yeah okay okay great yeah yeah i i don't do a good job with that so okay um so yeah how is paris man what's the uh what's it like these days i saw there's some protests going on right yeah because of the coronal virus um so situation is uh i mean pretty tense right now uh but hopefully uh people will uh start to you know um get along with this and we will be able to go through this you know this is i think it's just complicated time for a lot of people and so there is a lot of tensions and there were wires effectively but uh yeah i hope eventually everybody will be happy and we will forget this period i hope so right i feel very tumultuous obviously since 2020 and i don't know i think i think it's going to take some time i think there just seems to be the next thing the next the next event you know i i don't know it just feels like we're we're in a transition period overall on on a global scale you know it's not so much about covid or it's just yeah we're we're transitioning you know we're into this uh digital age exactly obviously monero is is playing a big part in this transition exactly exactly i guess guys like us are on the forefront of that so how did you become are you strictly a monero person or what's your what's your crypto story before we get into yeah why so yeah today so for me everything started back in 2013 late 2013 beginning of 2014 so at the beginning i was expecting involved into bitcoin and only bitcoin and uh i used to follow max kaiser i watched all these videos all the time and so yeah i was extremely involved in bitcoin and then they were etherion in 2015 and i was i'm a developer so i was among the first developers in france to try the ethereum blockchain and at that time i was more involved into the technical point of view rather than the investment point of view and then i pretty much started to not take care about ethereum and i was um focus on bitcoin and lately i mean it's not lately it's uh since 2018 i've identified monero and now i'm more and more involved in monero and uh i i would not call myself a mono maximalist but it's like i'm i'm gonna maximalise i'm yeah when i was extremely i think uh he says this technology is just um mind-blowing and uh i think what is coming from monero is it will it will shock the world you know it will all going to shock the whole world and i i don't think a lot of people are prepared for what's coming you know because the technology the community and what is going on um i mean all the people involved in monero i feel like they are good people uh monero at which is going an extremely good job and to spread the world uh what is coming with the decentralized exchange as well i think i mean everybody and you i think you're like the max case of money also yeah i mean i don't know if i want to be compared to that guy you see bitcoin conference yeah i know max i know max kaiser you know he has two sides you know because uh yeah i know at the beginning so he he made the max scoring i was stuff like this yeah but overall i think uh he he spread the world as well and a lot of people discovered bitcoin through marx so i think it's a pretty good i mean it's not uh a bad uh this is a compliment yeah no i'm kidding i'm kidding i would love to he's he's amazing what he's done uh yeah he went off the rails a little bit but that you know that that's his uh that's his shtick you know that's what that's what he does and i he yeah he's very entertaining extremely intelligent guy and he's a a forward thinking guy he's he was obviously ahead of his time um you know kind of one of the first people to get it out get crypto out to the mainstream um so you said you found monero i think you'd say 20 like around 2018 is when you yes you found it it was like like were you was it because of its privacy properties or what what led you to monero why obviously honestly uh i don't exactly remember how i found it um i think i was in a phase where i was discovering blockchain i mean i started very soon but there were still a lot of projects because it wasn't the same ecosystem so even ethereum was a new technology and we were talking about a lot of new terms and i was learning learning and so when i was today studying all the projects when i came across monero i immediately saw that there was something special about this project and since then i've been uh yeah digging deeper and deeper into what is more narrow and now i think i have a pretty accurate vision of this technology and the potential i think of this technology yeah so i i brought you on because of a reddit post i don't know if you've been posting a lot on reddit but this one particular one where you're talking about venero's liquidity okay it's kind of explaining liquidity and i thought you did it in a very uh you know eloquent way um so i want to bring you on because i think it's a big it's a big topic you know so i don't know how how much you actually know in terms of stats and things like that but i think uh you obviously understand the issue yeah um so so let's let's talk about it i mean often when you talk to people about monero especially btc maxis uh one of the major criticisms that comes about is well you know bitcoin has the network effect and monero uh you know it's it it doesn't have the liquidity so it's not even useful um and so it does seem to be one of monero's biggest hurdles right now which is of obtaining uh the proper liquidity so people so you know the the demand can be can be met for monero so it can be used in the way people want to use it yeah um so yeah just let's just go into that um yes exactly what is your monero's liquidity yeah i think there's a lot to say but just a question when you say uh there was a problem with monero liquidity what do you mean uh the liquidity on exchanges is this uh this week liquidation you're talking about i guess just overall you know it's not as liquid as a market as bitcoin is right so um it's it's harder to obtain monero um and it's i guess conceivably harder to uh sell monero right at any moment in time uh because there's you know it's it's not it's not as liquid so on exchanges uh just overall in the marketplace yeah i just wanted this precision so i think uh if some people were saying there was a problem of liquidity with monero and it's bad for monero i don't think i don't see in what extent it can be bad for monero and let me explain why because the problem of liquidity we're seeing right now is not because of manero is ubiquitous but is the contrary you know we are suffering from the scarcity of monero uh i think what has happened is um some exchanges so that uh this uh token this uh is extremely uh specific because it's private all right and they thought since it's private let's act like uh this is unlimited you know so they in the back yeah in behind the scenes they have established a system like if money was unlimited and they have been involved in selling paper xml so the liquidity issue we are surfing right now is a liquidity issue but it's not um i think it's extremely if i can use the term bullish from monero because they are suppressing the price of monero and they have been acting like this token was unlimited although it's extremely scarce it's more scarce than bitcoin it's going to be they're going to be less monero than bitcoin until 2014 so i i my for my analysis of the situation what's going on behind the scenes um i think um if i can name the exchange i think binance has been involved in an extremely dangerous game and now they are discovering that monero is extremely scarce and they are at their own extent i think they are going to suffer from this so what do you think is happening behind the scenes it's like you said so let's get let's get into that more yeah i don't know what actual data or facts we have um any you know let's get into that a little bit more i mean you're basically saying that you think there's exchanges that uh don't actually have as many monaro as they uh claim to have and they're just creating paper monero so allow essentially uh allowing people to to buy monero when they're not when they don't really have the monero to sell it yes exactly um we have any actual do we know that that's that's true i mean i know we had that that issue uh that we saw a few months ago now that seemed to be indicative of that fact um when change now had their liquidity crisis um but do you do you have any insight into into the problem further do you have any any any facts or data that we could talk about that might elucidate some of that yeah i have some i mean we know the nature of monero all right this is uh private cryptocurrency so as a private cryptocurrency the exchanges we cannot know exactly the amount they do have but we've got some data all right we got for instance we can see um if there is you know there is the 24 hour volume on the exchange there is also the order book so we can see the the correlation between these numbers do make sense or not and i will show you that it doesn't make sense moreover as you said and i think this is more than an evidence they had to stop withdrawals for more than a week so basically the situation started in may 16 or this year and uh for a week it was impossible to withdraw monero from binance and they said it was to a problem of network congestion but the core team which them asked them if they needed help in the monument community nobody knows about this error because it doesn't exist so binance has been pretending and alleging that there was uh an issue with the network but there was no issue with the network and i will so we do not know exactly how much whenever they do have but we've there are some clues beyond this fact that again they stopped withdrawals for more than a week so this is more than an evidence for me but beyond that we do have some other facts and i consider these other facts like additional clues but we cannot have an evidence because by the nature of manero unfortunately we cannot say um we can improve them with actual i mean we do the only thing we do we can have is clues but we cannot you know say 100 even if i think the world communities know that 100 they do have paper xml but this is what um the the clues we have so um do you want me to to talk about the clues right now or do you want to react to this or no no keep keep going yeah okay so for instance for instance so what we what we we would expect you know it was included in my uh in my post yeah at this time you know we were beyond just um um uh the i mean well beyond just you know the idea the potential idea that they were involved into a liquidity crisis with paper xmr at this point we were pretty sure that they were selling paper xmr so in this post i also warned the mining community that violence might come at them and try to to get their their money was because i when i'm pretty sure right now is that binance at this moment had no xmr in their results i'm pretty sure that it's not just they have few xml they would have they had no xml so for them they have to really they have to to for any source of xml i knew they were going to to go through it and to to to try to catch it you know so the mining forms i think um i mean the mining pools were a target that we identified directly and we warned the mining forms the mining pools so i also posted on for to one the mining pools and what happened is that nice nice ash which is a big mining pool for monero they stopped withdrawals exactly they started to stop withdrawals exactly at the moment of this crisis and they stopped for 34 days so for 34 days it was impossible to retrieve monero from nasa ash and as well another mining pool which is minor gate so two mining pools that have no it never happened to that extent uh in this mining pools and exactly at this moment as predicted um there was these problems for returning and whenever from this mining pools so this is one of the crew you know beyond the fact again they stopped withdrawals for more than a week then there is also you know so violence is an exchange and they have their own token which is uh the bnb token so what we would expect as well is that if they truly have the problem with monero is that they would use their bnb which is a token that they they like they have completely control over and they have a lot of bnb right so what we would expect is that they would sell their bnb for monero right and guess what anybody who can now go on violence all right and look at the short of monero violence moneo bnb xm airbnb chart all right what happened is that um there was a gigantic spike of volume all right in this uh in this um in this market xm airbnb and so the the volume used to be you know normal it was between uh 200 to 1000 to 2000 xml per day on the daily chart but what happened is that uh 20 in the middle of the crisis so 21 may uh of this year all right there was a dragon to spike and the volume reached 22 000 monero all right so this was a gigantic spark of volume and when we look the shot we see an incredible spike like i mean this is this is gigantic and the price of um it was not cell pressure on maneuver but they were buying xml with bnb so the price of um the price of monero went from 0.5 um to 0.9 all right uh it's which 0.9 may 21st 23rd so yes they use airbnb to buy monero you know and this was again expected and then another another clue that we do have is of the the ratio again between the 24 hour volume and the order book this was uh posted by another user and his idea was okay we cannot assess we cannot see exactly how much maneuvers they do have but let's see if there is some you know if it makes sense uh the data that do uh share let's see if we can analyze it and let's see if it makes sense and let's compare this data with another exchange like kraken because we are pretty much sure that uh the kraken exchange is fully without if i mean if not fully without i mean the results are pretty much um the results i think kraken because they are trying to get really integrated into the banking system and all that they're not playing behind the scenes against the interest of the monero community i i really think they're much more transparent and yeah so kraken is the exchange to go if someone wants to buy monero and binance is definitely to avoid so uh if we take the 24-hour volume all right and we compare this to the other book so the 24 hour volume on kraken is 11 000 boneros the older book is 47 000 moneros all right now let's see what is going on with binance binance the 24-hour volume we are all only talking about the sports market not the more not the future market only support market so for for binance the 24 hour volume is 154 000 moneros so with the same ratio if if binance has the same ratio as kraken we would expect that the older book it means the money that are ready to be sold on binance we will expect that this older book would be 658 000 moneros but guess what this older book is not six hundred fifty eight thousand four hours this older book is fourteen thousand moneros so you see that there is a huge discrepancy between what we would expect and what is actually on their older book so yeah we do not have evidence because again the monero blockchain is private but we do have some clues when we see the data that they share and unfortunately i think yeah balance is involved into something very shady and the monero community has been the victim of their actions and beyond binance i think it's other also exchanges that are involved i think for my analysis there are maybe three exchanges it's binance it's bitfenix and it's poloniex and all these exchanges you see that their price goes uh because at the end of the crisis we saw um the price from kraken and binance to decouple so it was very very um i mean at one moment there was a difference of 20 to 25 percent so it's a huge difference and the price in um binance polynex and um bitfenix this price was down much lower although on kraken it was much higher so yeah this is a pretty much situation right now yeah good good for you man for uh really trying to follow follow the trail here um which with monero is difficult because there really isn't much of a trail do you think so are we seeing this with other coins as well or is it really monero obviously you're a monero person so you're really focusing on monero but do we think this is happening with other cryptos as well on these um i think when it was very specific because again it's private so we don't have any clue we cannot see how much they do have on their results so they have used this was happening with say bitcoin it would be a lot harder to hide this right exactly exactly exactly and due to that um nature of monero i think the monero community truly have to um take this um seriously because i i truly think that this is this is a battle right now for monero i think the moneo community should but all its resources and all its uh intelligence to fight this uh actions because the battle of the prize is the first battle but it's uh it is an important battle and right now uh people from finance and other exchanges are acting like uh if manero belonged to them and they they yeah i truly think that um we have we have to to do something about it i don't think it happened uh for another token uh i never heard about another token that had such a liquidity crisis and issue and withdrawal will stop for more than a week you know it just shows that money is extremely scarce again it's more scared than bitcoin so um yeah and this would begin to explain the disconnect between what appears to be like real demand and usage uh for the coin versus the price that's reflected in the market right exactly exactly exactly because uh you know alfine when he started one of the first users of bitcoin when he started to use bitcoin the first issue he talked about was anonymity right so monero is a response to that it is a perfect response to that so the place of money in the crypto industry should be extremely higher than what it is right now and we are in a situation where all the outcomes are skyrocketing or or at least two to three times higher than the previous all-time high although monero it is not even half of its previous autumn high and when you compare this with the fact that moneo is um yeah it is the one the money of the dark net there is real demand of monero on the market from its usage the transactions have been increasing uh through the last month and years all the metrics when it comes to the fundamentals extremely positive but the price is extremely bad you know i we have to talk about it i think the current price of monero is not the reflection of its value and it is not a reflection of what it should be you know and the monero community again should use all its intelligence because i know there are a lot of intelligent people in the maneuverable community to analyze what is going on behind the scenes and to respond maybe we have to create a team to deal with this and to make sure that exchanges do not you know play against the interests of the manual people behind the scenes but i don't think we can afford to ignore this situation anymore and it's time to respond to them yeah no and that i i love that you're you're taking action here man uh started i think you're host we got you on here uh i i couldn't agree with you more there seems to be a major disconnect between uh the price of monero and what we see as the real world demand for it um so how do we fight back you know what what should be done what can be done to prevent this problem or to find out if what's going what we think is going on is really going on what can we do to if ex stop exchanges from doing this if they are in fact doing this what are some of the solutions what are some of the actions we can take all right so first of all again i think that the current situation is that we it's like we have just discovered the problem and now we have to respond as a community so i think again that the monero community is extremely intelligent so i don't i i can't look for positions but i do think that the best answers will come from the community as a community and all the people in the intelligence of the melanoma community but if i had to give some ideas i know maybe we know that binance for instance has acted against the interests of money holders behind the scenes while kraken seems to be more you know transparent so maybe we can first of all choose to prefer kraken rather than balance and to let the wall know i mean let the community know that it's better to use kraken than binance we can make sure that every website that talks about monero says not to use binance to to make this fact common knowledge because it's more and more common knowledge now but maybe we can put this to another level where we truly uh like welcome and kraken and say that balance is uh is extremely bad for monero then if we create maybe an institutional team or a team that will walk behind the scenes to defend monero and to make sure that the interests of money holders are respected uh on exchanges maybe this is something that we could do uh i don't know if uh the core team can work on this but yeah i think right now we are in the phase of the discovery and from this discovery phase we're going to enter the phase of the respond and the response i think will come from the community but yes i will try to to to be a part of this and to find solutions with the community to fight them back you know um to free xcom xml from this practice that are not um not good practice you know yeah i mean we could start to do that even on this show right so recommending if you're you know if you have to if you're gonna use an exchange you know don't don't opt for uh binance um yes excuse me if i can add something sure uh i i also think that um they are going to suffer the consequences of their actions because when when when um when monero will start to go up because they are trying to massively suppress the price with naked shorts uh the ratio of money when they throats is extremely extremely unbelievable all right um the ratio for for for bitcoin for instance is like 80 so we've got uh 80 of the shorts on bitcoin that are aged but for monero is like 0.001 percent so it means they are going they're doing all they can to surprise the price but when the the price will start to go up i truly think that people will start to retrieve their money from exchanges and at this moment it will be harder for them to maintain their system so the main thing we can do and i'm sorry not to have said this before but effectively the main thing we can do is to retrieve the monero from balance and from exchanges take your money off of exchanges yes this is what is going to help them the most and this is this is the main thing to do this is this is the thing to do actually you know it's a good thing to do even if this wasn't happening right because then you're using monero correctly you're holding that bearer asset um you know we've seen uh the bitcoin community always put that that meme out there hold your own keys get it off of exchanges do you think people are listening in monero and they're and they're doing that unfortunately i don't think so unfortunately i think there are still too much money on exchanges and because of that because what they i think what we we suspect them from doing is that they use the money on exchanges that people let to short monero you know this is what we suspect so unfortunately there are too many too many people that let their money on exchanges and now i think they are they have much more reasons not to let their money was on exchanges because even if it's another crypto you always want to own your crypto and you don't own it until it is on your own wallet so when people right now are letting money on exchanges this is very dangerous for them uh especially for the people that count on that money and that let a lot of money on this exchange because let's say that they have 25 percent of world monero and 75 of the paper moneros all right so it means three out of four persons that think that do have money on binance do not have it you know so when this crisis will explode three out of four person will be empty of one error and this can lead to dramatic situations and you know i truly think that we are in a situation right now if they truly don't have monero and potentially this is the new mongoose you know potentially violence is a new mongols when it comes to monero and yeah and just just to be clear so you know do you think the intent is because they're suppressing pr they're intentionally trying to suppress the price of monero or just because they want to you know make make money off of the exchange fees and they're just pretending that they have this monero they have paper monero and they're allowing people to exchange it without actually having the monero what what is driving uh binance to do this what's their how are they making money off of this why are they doing it what's their goal yeah so i think there are two two different um parties that are attacking monero right now so finance when it comes to binance i think what they do is they just sell paper money or xml paper so since there is a quantity of whenever they sell and they do not have they make money on this this is the first part but when it comes to the shorts i think also that they use the the money that people let on this exchange to short money also they make money when money goes down with by 14 monero and i also think that a lot there are potentially bitcoin maximalists and potentially governments that are afraid of the rise of monero that use these exchanges especially bitfenix to short mono so these parties when it comes to potentially bitcoin maximalists and governments they short money evenly but they do not have one error so they make it short monero and they do it in um i mean in the magnitude is extremely uh shocking so they are evenly motivated and maybe potentially ready to lose money and but they want money down yeah no i i i tend to agree with you that it seems like somebody is actively trying to suppress the price whether it's that's you know governments or some some somebody else that has an incentive to do so we you know it's anecdotal but i i've been in this in this marketplace for quite some time it sounds like you have as well it's just the price of monero just doesn't make sense versus yeah it doesn't make sense it's sitting at at 26.

Ranked 26 in coin market cap you know i understand people like the next new thing but even so it just does the amount of pr buy pressure that's there for its real world usage um compared to any other coin it's it's just doesn't it doesn't add up it doesn't yes exactly it doesn't make any sense you know and you know it's some people who say yes it's easy you're between uh maximally so you think you know but no i mean just look at the facts you know this is the only outcome i mean for me mono is not even a nine coin i truly believe now monero right now has become and is becoming a new acid class and it is not an alkene anymore and personally i do not treat monero as an outcome anymore you know but i have a tendency to anticipate you know the tendencies and what is going on and i think that a lot of people are going and are going to do it more and more but when it comes to the price yes i mean the situation of monero like it's not even the top 10 it's not even top 20 it doesn't make any sense but again if you truly want to choose the right technology sometimes you're ahead of your time and what you want to take care about is not the current situation but the fundamentals and what i do personally is i try to imagine where smart people with i iq will invade the money in the future i don't think they will do it in a dog money i don't think you know but private store value private transactions i think yes this is pretty much interesting you know and monero is basically doing what bitcoin does but with privacy so private store value i truly think that this use case is going to be more and more necessary in the coming years and i know that a lot of bitcoin people are used to talk about the eight trillion market cap of gold as a target but the also market is 30 trillion so potentially monero is much bigger than bitcoin you know so yeah just you know sometime yeah the current i couldn't agree with you more you know and yeah obviously those of us that really understand the value proposition of cryptocurrency have have arrived at monero and we realize what's at stake we realize the direction that the world is moving in and you need a crypto that has these certain attributes for it to survive uh and there's really only manera i mean bitcoin bitcoin is decentralized and it's got that going for it it's robust in in its network effect but it's it's lacking privacy and uh that's critical and it doesn't appear to be able to fix that it's you know it's the it it's too late you know the plane has already taken off from it's already taken off it's already flying and it can't add uh you know additional additional uh turbines you know it's it's lacking in in its design um so you know we we often talk about you know is monero going to start to get delisted more is it going to start to get added to exchanges uh that's something that people are always talking about you know part of me thinks it would be great if obviously if you see monero on more exchanges but will we continue to see this type of manipulation um and is monero d listings arguably in some ways a good thing uh forcing people in the monero community to use it as intended and then to start to use things like decentralized exchanges and atomic swaps which we're seeing the advent of creating a more pure marketplace right that really uh it's going to be more difficult to manipulate that in the way this is potentially being manipulated um and then also allowing people to use monero peer-to-peer uh without anybody really being able to gain any additional heuristics on the users since they're now kind of in the off in the in the fringes using monero as they wish trading into it as they wish uh without going through these centralized authorities what's your take on that i mean do you want to see monero being listed on more exchanges are you okay with you know a trend where it starts to get potentially delisted more and we start to see more of this peer-to-peer usage and things like atomic swaps what's your thinking around around those ideas yeah i think um this is because they have been trying i'm talking about the government they have been trying to fight monero and they've been trying to do it at the protocol level but they are realizing that it's too hard and that they're not going to succeed so effectively the only point of failure for manero is exchanges and they can apply pressure by trying to [Music] bend monero or to delete it but we have seen in countries like nigeria that when you ban a cryptocurrency or you remove it or you delete it we have seen that it doesn't stop its usage it increases its usage it doesn't stop its demand it increases its demand so they can try to delete monero but i don't think it will stop monero the only thing that could stop monero is to stop it at the protocol level but at their own expense they are realizing that it's not possible you know with the current technology and with the hard work of the monero community it's not possible so they are truly starting to fight monero and i think they started years ago but this fight is going to become more and more intense until they realize that they cannot stop it and then they have to comply with it and they have to see the future in a world where people have a way to store value privately and they have to couple them you know because i think for for years now for 50 years since president nixon stopped the gold you know uh transfer i mean uh since that date you know i i think that the states have been in the position of uh ubiquitous power and that they've been the position they could do everything they could they wanted and the citizens had no way to to defend themselves you know they had to to to to suffer from this and for the first time this technology can give back freedom to people and from this i think we will see new um new positive things for the society you know this is my take i think they will try they will fight but um eventually they will have to comply and uh to to accept the existence of this a new um of new technology and again i don't think this is bad i don't think this is bad for the world um i think this is a right for the people and again you said it we are ahead of our time to some extent and we have to give the world fungibility and this is new technology and some people that do have power and that are in a position of power right now they don't like it they don't want people to have it but let's fight and let's give it to the to the world and to the people you know and i think the maneuver community is an elite community and as a native in uh as an elite community we do have some responsibilities and you know to be strong and to fight and to to remain when some people don't like what we are doing i think this is the quality and yes we we have to do is necessary to make sure that in the future people will be able to use a fungible cryptocurrency effect do you think atomic swaps decentralized exchanges things like thor chain are gonna have on the liquidity of monero and the price of monero do you have any thoughts there um i i think right now it's too hard to use so it doesn't have a real impact but in the coming years i think it's going to play a very important role and as the user experience is made easier and easier i think a lot of people are going to start to use it and we have seen for instance with um ethereum that decentralized exchanges have um their volume you know it went from nothing to something extremely high and i think potentially the same thing will happen with monero uh we just maybe need time but we do have time and i i think we do have also uh the qualities and um the people who are working on decentralized exchanges right now with uh very interesting projects so i i do think that um with time these decentralized exchanges might become the main exchanges and this would be great yeah i mean i i don't trade i don't use uh centralized exchanges i you know i just try to accumulate um when i can um get paid in monero a little bit for you know we do the show we get we we do our sponsorships but i i don't trade but for me kind of the holy grail would be you know when you could have have your monero you're using it peer-to-peer and when you want to you can move it into perhaps something more stable at times and you could do that in a decentralized trustless way without going through any central authority uh obviously eventually perhaps you won't even need to do that once the market gets large enough the market cap gets large enough and you don't have to worry about the volatility as much um but for me that's that's something that i'm excited for and hoping we arrive at the day that you can hold your monero use your monero but then also easily if need be move some of that into something stable and that's and do it in a way that's decentralized and trustless um and go back and forth between you know your your stable coin and your monero do you think along those lines yes um but i think yes yes for the short to middle term but i think in the long term as monero price rises i think eventually it will become stable and hopefully we won't have to make these transfers but yes for the middle to short short and middletown effectively money was going to be volatile so yes decentralized exchanges will be very useful to make this kind of transfers and to benefit from stable coins and that's why i think uh the fact that the monero community started to work on this very soon before it's necessary it's extremely smart and uh very good do you think that's why a lot of people currently leave mineiro on exchanges is for that reason because they're they're worried about the vault they want to be able to get out of monero move out of monero into other things uh to you know to protect their their value yes i think this is the main reason because some people you know fear a very huge dump of mineral and at this moment they want to be able to to sell extremely fast i think yeah but it's a double-edged technique a method and they have to be aware of the risk which is that when binance will not be able to meet its uh demand and the fact that they are doing ev paper xml is beyond what they can handle at this moment they might be empty of xml i mean they might connect to balance and this time it won't be weak but it would be forever and at this moment they will have to to take their responsibility and to accept it because they took the risk and it will be at their own expense so i i truly think that it is not a good idea to do it and between this risk and the risk of a potential dump i choose a dump because the price of when i was already at the bottom of the bottom and i don't see where it can go i mean this is i it doesn't make any sense for me you know yeah i'd rather just hold my monero you know the risk isn't worth it to deal with change yes and even even if the price dumps i mean it is not the good price already so it's going to go higher eventually you know and the scarcity and all that will lead the price much higher so it doesn't make any sense to let money on exchanges yeah and i don't want to deal with the tax implications of trading and uh and yeah you know and also i'm i'm just trying to be on the forefront of pushing us to the point where we can all just sorry about that it's a little accurate where we could all just uh you know hold and use our monero on a daily basis the way it's meant to be used peer-to-peer so the only way that happens is if some of us actually just start doing that today uh and then you know hopefully eventually that becomes more of a mainstream thing to do um so it seems like we're certainly moving in that direction it's exciting to see these new technologies atomic swaps is you know it's not theoretical it's real it works it's not user friendly yet but we're we're pierce we appear to be moving in that direction as well to the point where you know it will be integrated in things like cake wallet and samurai so it's it's it's happening uh yes very exciting unfortunately i think they were hacked recently but you know i like their vision and it looks like they're going to be a nice on ramp as well on and off ramp for monero to to other coins through through thor chain oh one thing uh we didn't touch on i have it on my notes is proof of funds right wasn't there some people talking about yes yes that and get exchanges so as another potential solution i guess forcing exchanges to adopt some kind of proof of funds protocol that will allow us to know whether or not they actually have the monero that they say they have yes exactly so i think it would be a possibility for if manero has um so a team that works with institutions and exchanges to demand from exchanges that they apply this protocol so this protocol is called the improve and it says it can make sure that we have a proof of servancy at one moment from exchanges you know so with this protocol exchanges can prove that they do have a certain amount of monero at that time and we as a community i truly think that we could demand this from exchanges and if some exchanges refuse to do this then the community has to avoid them and not to use them you know because we should benefit from this if the technology make it possible um yeah so it is an improved protocol and i think it was created in 2018 and um yes yeah there is a document that describes this protocol and what it does and how it proposes to um to force exchanges to to prove that they do have a certain amount of monero are there any legitimate reasons why an exchange may not want to do it obviously they they may not want to do it if they don't want to expose that they actually don't have the funds but legitimate reasons other than i guess the work involved with adding it no i don't i don't i don't see any reason why they will refuse um i mean if they refuse it's maybe because their results are lower than what they want us to believe i think this is the only reason why they would refuse but other than this i don't see it yeah it'd be interesting to see somebody like a kraken be the first one to do it since it seems like they they are legitimate right so yes that would just add to their brand showing that they're they're trustworthy and they're willing to do it uh and then that would put pressure like you said on these other exchanges to do the same or to risk losing uh volume from monero traders yes and kraken has been i think more transparent than any other exchange when it comes to monero and i feel like monero can be an opportunity for kraken because they can again i truly think that moneo is not an altcoin and uh kraken has been in crypto for some time so they do realize it i think and for them it can really be an advantage to take an advantage over binance because violence would be left with all its coin if we can talk uh like it is although kraken will be with monero and they would implement this protocol prove that they do have reserves while other exchanges that do not have moneros would be forced to either implement this protocol or to let monero along you know but i truly think that yes kraken and maybe other exchanges can play um a very big part in this and let's see how it goes but that would be great i have also my notes uh dv chain i don't i know you mentioned that in your reddit post so we're we're talking about finance but what role does dv chain play in the ecosystem so dv chain is a liquidity provider and for my research it is the biggest liquidity provider of manual in the world and so their role is to make sure that there is a market so when someone wants to buy monero for instance maybe there is not a person in front of him or her in the platform to sell monero so it would be impossible for for this person to buy at this moment because there is nobody at this moment to sell so in order to do that you need an intermediary and this is what we call liquidity provider so the equation t providers they offer liquidity to exchanges so they do have a certain amount of monero and they are an intimidate and so when you buy when you sell most of the time you buy and you sell from them and the fact is exchanges a lot of times they use liquidity providers especially in markets with low liquidity and so dv chain is an important actor for the monero ecosystem and a lot of exchanges that are empty of manero right now are trying to use the services of dv chain and i let jvcn know about the situation so they they know what's going on and uh i also think that uh to some extent they knew um about the situation uh i mean before i send them the information but at least now we are sure that the they know about what's going on and um hopefully they're not going to help violence and other exchanges and to maintain the system because as a liquidity provider it means that they do have a lot of this asset and it is pretty clear that they would benefit much more from the appreciation of this asset than any service of liquidity provider i mean um it doesn't make yeah the incentive to want these exchanges to not be pulling these shenanigans right because then the price of monero goes up and they're they're large holders of of monero yes you know so but what's the idea the idea being that they can put pressure on the exchanges as well or what what role can they play to help uh fix the ecosystem actually um when it comes to this i don't have i mean because as far as i know dv chain so they offer services for monero for instance but they also offer services for other tokens so maybe in the situation of monero they have leverage you know they are the position of force but maybe for other tokens they are not in this position and they want to keep the market these other tokens so maybe they are all on stage behind the scenes i don't know what's going on this is a possibility that they are forced to do it even if they they would not like to do it but if they want to maintain their the place for other markets they they have to accept this i don't know what is exactly going on behind the scenes but what i would tell tell them is that if they are holding a huge amount of monero potentially they are holding a huge amount of uh incredible asset that is not an alcorn and that they should not consider as an alcorn anymore and the price appreciation of this asset will benefit from them i think much more than any liquidity provider service they can offer even if if it is for other tokens i believe justin from the monero community actually used to work for them um yeah i saw that in my researches exactly yes i don't know much about them i know i think change now obviously was talking about that when we have them on the show but yeah i should try i should just try to do a show with uh with divi chain and to try to learn more about that seems like uh a direction we should head in on monero all right man this is this is great so you know my way here is that we're gonna do more work on our end to always reiterate that message to people you know to take your monero off exchanges i think what happens is we kind of forget that we need to say that because you just assume that's that's just a thing that everybody already knows but i don't think there's any harm in drilling that into the monero community all the time and making that part of our ethos that you know the right way to use monero is is official taking it off exchanges and holding your own keys so we'll we'll continue to repeat that meme and do our part in trying to get the information out there and like you said essentially warn people against using some of these exchanges that really do appear to be doing something inappropriate and not not having the funds to to back up their their trades so uh thank you for pushing us in that direction i think that that's the positive that's at least one positive that will come of this conversation one actionable thing we can do right away we'll start to do that more on the show and on monerotopia always talking about it um beyond that where can people i guess reach out to you that are interested in helping you in this pursuit because it does sound like you're very interested in this uh obviously you you're you're studying it you're following it so maybe people can reach out to you and you can talk to other people and maybe come come up with additional ways that the community can try to push these initiatives forward where can they find you where can people learn about you um i mean i'm not pretty active on the social networks um because for me again i'm a member of the monero community and i will truly act uh when it comes to this crisis just as a member of manuel community so yes i mean they can uh have a twitter account but um i mean i don't have a lot of followers and but yes my twitter account is what kevin wag kevin they can follow me there but maybe i will because i have also another project uh i'm going to to to work more more on this other project and um yes but this is i think the other use case for cryptocurrency uh than monero and i'll have this other project and maybe i will open a youtube channel for this project so when i if i do it they they would be able to find me on the kevin wad and this will be the name of my channel and yes that's uh that's it you know because yeah for me there are three main case use cases in cryptocurrency and so i see a future with three main cryptocurrencies so the first one would be i mean the two first ones would be bitcoin and monero so a transparent cryptocurrency a private cryptocurrency maybe the private crypto security will become the main cryptocurrency but if you do have this the i mean the only drawback that you have is that you have an uncertainty on the supply so you want a bucket system you know and i see potentially um if you want a backup system then having a transparent network that operates you know is a possibility so maybe bitcoin will become a kind of backup system in the event that there is a problem with the supply of monero and at this moment you people will be able to transfer that the money into a transparent system uh where the supplies is um is auditable and fixed all that but yes for me the future will be become manero and i see another possibility another use case for cryptocurrency which is open source medical research without intellectual property and this is uh the project i'm working on it's called etika protocol and um i i think this will be the main use case for cryptocurrency in the coming years so yeah this is my my my three main focus and uh yes that's it well let's you know let's get into that just a little bit well we'll wrap it up but let's get it so just so that you know the audience understands a little bit more about what you're working on i want to give you the platform to talk about it so tell us more about that concept yeah so basically you know so right now people a lot talking about defy which is decentralized finance but i i think this is useless and i think that decentralized science design i would call it is much more promising for the future um i think we do have the possibility with blockchain to create a new system a complicated system a complete new organization in the way we organize uh medical research and we can make open source medical research a reality thanks to blockchain we can create a protocol that will incentivize decentralized communities and organizations to take part in a way of um researching together and right now the medical resources is organized um with the idea of intellectual property so you have private institutions that do work in competition so you have a lot of problem like the word prediction of work so they are working on the same issue they are doing and spending money doing the same things but they do not share the results and it is the first team that finds the results that get uh the intellectual property and then they monetize this in particular property and this is the way they finance um all the the money that they have to spend but with blockchain we can make sure that they are decentralized organizations that share the results all along the process of the research and i think it's going to lead to much quicker results and also much faster results because decentralized communities can be extremely uh much more efficient if you take for instance the average price to develop one medicine is one to two billion dollars and beyond these huge numbers you uh very usually have small teams of 15 10 people working actually on the project a lot of the spending are done in marketing or in fundraising but the the very research very a very tiny amount of this uh money is spent actually on research and the teams are actually small and yes i truly think that this is the next next big thing for cryptocurrency and that we will see in the coming years uh protocol to organize medical research without intellectual property and that this particle will i think be a huge things potentially and when i when i i keep studying ethereum and carbano because i i see this these projects as technically just i mean a lot of people are talking about this project and they all they do is defy decentralized finance but it is useless but as a programmer i've used ethereum to i mean i've made the white paper and i made the protocol i've coded the protocol so the consensus all of this it's uh it's ready and i see ethereum as a mean to achieve this use case of decentralized open source medical research and for me i don't see the use case for ethereum and other projects like this but specifically for this use case having an ethereum is extremely valuable and that's why i i kept studying ethereum and i've made this protocol interesting matt so do do you have a background in this area as well this you know uh you know scientific research area what's um what why are you trying to solve that particular problem well visualizing uh essentially the development of things like pharmaceuticals right yes um i don't have a specific background on this but um i've identified this project i mean this problem is also because there is a problem for malaria for instance which is a disease that is more spread in the south of the world and there is a project which is called open source malaria so it's some researchers that are trying to find a medicine for malaria in an opportunist way but i've identified that the way they do it there is no will incentivized because they don't have a lot of investment from their part and i i see that if there is a blockchain project with an economic incentive to do it they would work much more on this and it will lead to much more than this but beyond this uh there is also the possibility to work on um life expense and the fact that um there is uh researcher which is called david sancler so this researcher is working on way to stop aging and to potentially change the process of aging so he has been working on this alone but he has made some breakthrough alone and i imagine what would happen if he was not walking alone on this but like thousands of people were walking with him but why there are not thousands of people walking with him in this direction because there is no economic incentive but with blockchain we can create this economic incentive to participate in a decentralized way and yes i truly think that beyond this there are also a lot of other diseases where the research could be much more valuable if there were more people you know sometimes people when they are sick they have a disease they're organizing communities online but i also see i also saw that they were passive you know they were waiting for a solution from the private market but what if these people could gather because they are very knowledgeable about the disease they find information on the internet so what if these people could be on just waiting actively take part in the process to find the solution to their problem yeah yeah interesting stuff man i think you know i i initial reaction i guess like pharmaceutical companies would say well you know we need intellectual property we need patents uh because we wanna we wanna own monopolies ultimately on our creations and that's what gives us the incentive to put so much money up front uh it was the idea that on the back end will be heavily rewarded or even with the wind the monopoly and that's why they have the incentive to do it so how how is that incentive then replaced right they they want that monopoly that's what's driving them to develop these pharmaceutical pharmaceuticals so how how is that being i'm not following how that gets replaced in a decentralized way what what is then the the driver there yes so in the in the hr protocol so there are decentralized communities that i mean it's a nice equilibrium and it's a voting system and this protocol incentivizes people to share the results along the process and they are rewarded along the process by the the neutral protocol so it's um it's a set of rules that makes it possible to have another incentive than intellectual property and that's that is why it's extremely different from as you said the current system of the industry and i think that we in the future we can imagine a system where there are two systems that work in parallel so they can maintain what they are doing but next to this we can i mean from the society from the people we can create a system of decentralized communities that would work on these issues that they're working on and potentially this new system can become a source of ideas and a source of uh for them you know i think the two system can be extremely complementary but a system with that intellectual property as an incentive is possible and this is uh what i made in the white paper and what i have coded and now i i know that it's possible in uh in the coming years i will focus on this interesting man i got to think about it more you know i wasn't expecting to talk about this is very interesting um so yeah where could where can people then learn more about that as well if they're interested in following it yes so the project is named etika protocol so it's the e-t-i-c-a they can see the white paper and they can see also the code is on github so they can see the open source code on github uh on the if i i have implemented this protocol on the ethereum blockchain and um maybe in the future it will be also implemented on carbon blockchain i don't know but the idea um is yes to to develop this project in the coming years uh i started this project in 2018 but then i stopped because um i was involved in other things like monero and all this but i know that this project has huge potential and all the people have talked about it about this product they tell me why did you put this in the side all this but i know that yes in the coming years i'm going to focus on this yes yeah it's a big undertaking all right good luck um thanks again for coming on i'm glad we we found you on reddit through that post we like just you know getting on guests that you know uh i we don't like talking about the same things all the time on this show and we we it's it's sometimes hard not to do that uh we're so focused on um you know the fungibility aspects of monero and it's nice to get uh new guests throughout the community so yeah putting the word out there too anybody you know that tunes into monero talk that would ever want to come on for a kind of a deep dive obviously we have monerotopia as well where anybody is any welcome any time to jump on the stage there but if anybody ever wants to deep dive on a subject come on and you think you you have some knowledge to share with the monero community please do reach out to us we'd love to have you on so kevin thanks again man thank you very much douglas and yes a very huge pleasure to to to meet you and talk with you yes all right have a good day yeah me too thank you for joining us on this week's 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