Decred Assembly – Ep15 – Decred and ASICs

hello everybody and welcome to episode 15 of the D current assembly I'm your host Tyler and today on the show we have a really special show we're going to be discussing potentially bringing Asics to the D cred project and why we should not be scared of that so before we get started on the show today I just wanted you guys know we have we have a couple of special guests on the show we have Tim Olson from zero pond I have two we have not so fast crypto joining us I think let's go on run we have a good old Dave C lead developer of D Craig hey guys we have my co-host Austin Williams hey Austin and in the word joined also by salt who nice also coming from the Bay Area he's he's here with them so before we get started yeah let's go over the voting proposal right now so it looks like D cred is in the vote to add check sequence verify and I think an OP code – hash sha-256 Dave don't I think that sounds right just and anyways it looks like we're 78% to the boat with 99.5 percent of the votes saying yes which is a great sign and we've reached quorum which means there will definitely be a yes or no and it's heavily looking like it's definitely yes so I get all this stuff at it and implement like me Network it's still gonna reach the threshold so it's gonna pass it's basically like this so yeah Dave so I was wondering maybe you could tell it sure with us shortly what to expect from adding this new stuff to 2d cred and one will expect to actually see some real lightning network functionality sure so I'm gonna go quickly because we have a packed schedule today the primary thing really we need to do still is finished part of the network it's called a Lindy but it's the Lightning Network demon it's the thing that allows you to connect Lightning network to other nodes when you finish up that port and then there will be some work that will be put into the credit on wallet to be able to actually do some things over lightning Network the you know at first they're just like because in general lightning network isn't completely done as far as all the things you will be able to do it'll be fairly limited right off the bat you just be able to kind of send basic transactions thing else as far as off chain atomic swaps and all that will come later awesome really cool so next big news item we have is a grant has been added to the Korean update exchange its trading seems to be doing well I've noticed a big bump and a lot of all coins in the past week after the big gold shenanigans kind of ceased but yeah this is really awesome I think there's probably gonna end up being some fiat markets had it on the exchange potentially for decode too so that's it's really great news they were growing Korean community so yeah other big news today is there's a blog post released called I don't even know how to pronounce it pull Matteo politeia okay politeia is the proposal system and it's an in-depth conversation that talks about how it's gonna work why it was built and how it can actually be used for for a bunch of other things so another really cool part of this there's actually a contest that was announced to build the best applications using the pull it a framework that in the prizes are for first second and third are ten thousand five thousand and two thousand dollars respectively paid out in geek read so if you guys have any great ideas on how to use version immutable version controlled time stamping to hash files to the decrypt blockchain you know you know come join the the slack at and gets slack key credit org if you want already a part of the channel and you can discuss and you can you know find other people get questions answered and come up with unique ideas and and check it and see if somebody's already working on your idea so I think you're supposed to reach out to one of our community managers in Sauk cool so yeah alright so I guess yes you know so yeah let's get started I've got a jam-packed show ahead of us and yeah I guess first question will just start jumping right into it so Tim and salt here are both part of a projects that some of you may or may not be familiar with it's called zero pond back in the day maybe Tim can talk more about that these guys have been involved in the mining space and they're also developers software developers and they have a hardware member on their team and they're actually looking to do a community driven project to bring a 6-2 to decribe and just as a heads up to let you guys know this is a community driven effort so this is not like formally adopted by the decried project so and we are each other so Dave see myself not so fast and box mining and in Austin are trying to do our best due diligence to make sure that everything is technically sound and that this is a project that has a good chance of succeeding so we're gonna dive more into that but I just want to be you know perfectly clear that you know this is no direct connection to the actual project this is all community driven and this potentially is gonna be a really good thing for Verde cred so yeah that's kind of my winning so yeah let me jump into it Tim yeah so yeah I was already having tell us a little bit yourself your team your background sir so salt and I have been mining for a long time he started in 2011 mine Bitcoin on Cynthia if any of you remember that that actually existed once upon a time he and I met in 2013 and we built a Manero mining operation by 2015 we were the largest mineral miners in the network we used our wallet proof to do a crowdfunding Z cash mining operation called Z or upon that you whistle of you made a list from that project but you know we're not really facilities operators we are developers I'm a programmer since birth you know assault was a security analyst were devs so we decided to you know focus on the minor part of operation and so we brought in a third partner he goes by 7400 he's an experienced basic developer we can talk more about him later but our goal was to build an ASIC 4d cred we think it would be tremendously helpful for the community obviously we want to make a little money out of it also but it's something that I think could benefit this coin and this project more than any other coin really and we'll talk about so yeah and so do you and I maybe introduce yourself shortly and quick yeah I'd like to mention that I'm inviting a longtime really sort of was swept away by my cryptocurrency as as soon as I heard about it I've been digging into a lot of coins and I've sort of fallen in love with tea cred so I'm really excited to be working on this project and and I'm moving forward I hope we can build more 4d cred as well awesome yeah well thank you means a lot to us I know the lot of our hardcore community members really appreciate that so yeah so I guess first we can we could just jump into the basics so what what is an ASIC say we can handle a question there are so a Sikh stands for application specific integrated circuit and it means computer chip other than CPUs many of you do in your computer but if you open up your computer there's a lot of other chips in there and so most of those other chips are what we would call a six they might handle your USB port they might handle communication between the CPU and the memory there's a lot of different things that a six can do but the main feature is that they're not really programmable they do one thing they do one thing only but they do it very efficiently so in terms of D cred when we talk about making an ASIC minor we're talking about making a minor like an N minor or s9 or something like that where all it does it's not a GPU it's not a CPU all it does is mind D credit can be used for anything else but it doesn't very efficiently very well so that's what it is that's an ASIC gotcha great answer okay so getting into ASIC Development I I know that there's kind of especially in the mining space there's typically a process that we've seen or you know miners migrate from CPUs two GPUs PGA's eventually we get into the actual ASIC development could you maybe talk about the process of creating an actual ASIC from kind of start to finish sure so there's a lot that goes into it obviously you do design at first and you explore what we call a process note with which is the maybe you've heard of like 28 nanometer 16 nanometer things like this there are different sizes of technology you can use to make a chip so there's research around that once you have a design and you have chosen a process node production of a chip is kind of like printing a photograph there's like a photographic negative and they shine light through the negative onto a silicon wafer basically most of the of the money to build a chip goes to what we call a mask which is this photo negative so you do some design work you choose a process hood and then you build this mask and then once you have this mask which is a negative you can just print a bunch of chips which you but that mask is very expensive and building on that generally the the smaller the process no the more efficient it is and the more expensive it's it's new technology it uses different machinery slightly different processes and you know if you go lower and lower it gets more expensive but more efficient there's a lot of steps I left out that's sort of a general overview you can get into more detail but basically the process takes you know it'll take us about six months to put together a minor the actual chip fabrication takes three to three-and-a-half months after it's totally ready to go and there's some design work on either side of that also so that's sort of what it looks like on a calendar gotcha so brings me to our next question how do you how do you prove to me that you can actually build an ASIC for 4d cred I knew it's actually really possible you know some algorithms are you know vastly different but how do you guys prove this out and what's one of those kind of steps look Viking yeah so um building an ASIC is a very specific type of work and you want someone with a lot of experience that's not me I haven't done it I'm a programmer I work with software so we brought on an ASIC expert and he goes by 7400 he let me just give you some of his background he went to MIT he's designed a six for over 30 years now he's designed a six for personal computers from mainframes he's done consumer electronics graphics all kinds of things he's personally seen overseeing the end-to-end process for a half dozen ships but he hasn't been involved with dozens his designs are currently in hundreds of millions of chips so he's a great guy to have on board and you absolutely need someone with his experience and talent so that's what I would point to a blockchain mining ASIC is actually relatively simple compared to a lot of other Asics that would get produced this guy is done much higher in work and this is kind of a cakewalk for him you know like nothing's there for a hundred percent but in terms of the Blake algorithm compared to designing something like know a CPU or a big communications chip it's relatively simple and we're not doing we're not we're not doing everything ourselves there's a certain step where you engage something called fabless semiconductor company that helps with some of the final steps before you go to production so it's not like yeah yeah that's an important part too so we already have established the relationship with a company called global unit chip corporation they're almost not quite agree of TSMC tsmc is the world's largest chip manufacturer believe it Intel and they'll be producing the chip and you see is sort of their arm that handles some of the final production steps they do testing and packaging things like that which are not necessarily programming or design necessarily that we do but it's essential for actually testing and building hardware so that sort of thing we have a relationship with them and I also believe you have an enclosure guy in your team I don't know I'm talk about him but he's also a hotshot he's yeah I don't know what how public he wants to be with his real identity but he's done a lot of telecom equipment for example which is generally you know high voltage high amperage big gear that they put in special data centers though he's dealt with cobbler buses and back lanes that are much more sophisticated than what we're going to see in this minor gotcha right it sounds like you guys have a lot of the stuff to actually accomplish a job so I guess you know I'm gonna get a break this out into a more less formal fashion of queries of questions so the next question is like you know wire Asics a good thing for D Craig and I'm hoping the Dave seasoning elbows jump in and you know drop some knowledge for everybody sure hope they don't come too long here this is actually a topic I'm quite passionate about so first ones they'll start off by saying that D cred absolutely needs a sense I am super excited about the project in fact that a six or a possibility here because despite what a lot of people think a six are not a negative thing and I'll go into why here and try to convince you that so one of the biggest issues or concerns that people have is that they say like oh well you know GPUs are actually you know more decentralized the reality is that isn't true first of all and second of all GPUs only having GPUs actually makes the coin more vulnerable to it and the reason for this is that take for example I'll give you some hard numbers just before the show I looked this up so right now we have about 350 tera hashes of hash the hash rate is about 350 tera hashes to put that into perspective 25 a six which is nothing there's enough to decimate entire current global hash rate of D Craig right another reality is that there are two pools when we did the upgrade recently to the latest version of the software I know this because we we went through and the pools did not upgrade at the same time so we saw this the hash rate and before the first pool updated that the highest rate excuse me the percentage of blocks that were upgraded before the first pool updated was 4% after the first bowl upgraded had to jump to 49% after the second pool upgraded several days later and went to 97% so if you do that math what that says is that there are two pools that control over 90 percent of the hash power indie cred now it isn't as bad as in a pre pure proof-of-work coin because over there if you have 51% of the hash power you can really wreak a lot of havoc and D credit has the dual layer system to help protect against this but still having a you know having only two pools is not a good thing and in case you think this is just something specific to D cred it's not right this is common among all projects for example a perfect example this is a theorem you guys know it's extremely popular but you may not know is there are roughly 2 million GPUs mining it and yet three pools comprise over sixty percent and six pools are over 85 percent so you know a lot of people like to pick on the centralization of Asics and Bitcoin because there's only three or four pools well you know it's no different in etherium with two million GPUs right so that that that's the reality is that you make your coin more vulnerable to takeover and to people playing shenanigans when you only have GPUs versus the risk of centralization and I'll finish off on this point here I could talk more but the last I think the most important thing to talks about is the reality is that in any proof of work system centralization is inevitable no matter what you do you can try to do a sick aunt is a Kasich resistance people will create botnets right though there are a ton of ways around it and nothing you do is going to stop it because people are incentivized for this behavior the reality is the capital cost reduce or increase excuse me the capital costs increase over time because you know you have more hardware's you have more hardware the hash rate goes up as the hash rate goes up you need more hardware you need more electricity so all of these costs all increase over time while simultaneously the amount of coins being produced is decreasing over time because reward subsidies and decreed anyway they reduced by every three week three weeks by 1% and Bitcoin you know what halves every four years but no matter the coin it always has this scenario in any kind of a deflationary currency because of the fact that the capital costs increase on one side while the rewards decrease and any time you have that scenario there is only one inevitable result centralization yeah and so you know looking if you if you really look into the code of tea cred seems like you guys were actually in preparation for a six and adopting a six ahead of time you know maybe you could talk a little bit about like you know what the design of you know I think you touched on this a little bit but you know the design of D Craig actually had this in mind from you from running so you know one of the primary reasons that Blake 256 which is the proof-of-work algorithm that we use the hash algorithm the one of the primary reasons it was chosen is specifically because it can be efficiently implemented in hardware in fact you can be implemented more efficiently than sha-256 which is what bitcoin uses in hardware that was a big factor and we also designed the block header too technical here but we also designed the kind of the key part that you're looking at when you're mining to be able to efficiently deal with a six or handle a six so we we definitely designed it with a six in mind because we we want them we knew that they're they are important and ultimately we wanted them to have a smooth transition yeah and you know the main reason that the ticket system is kind of the final safe for all blocks at it to the blockchain is you know to mitigate that risk of centralization mining so correct right because what I was saying you you never you know it's a it's the inevitable result so the second layer actually deals with that yeah I think another I think another great you know point in in terms of the the discussion around being for a six or against a six is that you know when people have large GPU farms which you know we had that they don't they're not as invested in in the state of the coin because you know if they change something with the coin or the economics don't look so good there are other options out there right and just switches yeah whereas when it's burnt into silicon you really you really are financially invested in that coin and it really does give the community and everybody who votes a lot of power over over the minors which i think is good it they have to act nicely otherwise they lose their investment essentially on a GP you can't really do that yeah you know a GP you farm can't just run to another coin and abandon whatever coin they were mining before but like I said an ASIC is application-specific integrated circuit if you're mining with an ASIC on D cred you can't go mine another coin you're committed to D cred your indie cred with everybody else and I think that's one of the biggest benefits we can bring to this community is making sure the people who mined e cred care about decrypt yeah it's actually I forgot to mention that there's an excellent point to add to that the price drops I don't know if you–if you thought about this but the reality is that price graphs are actually exacerbated by GPU miners because what happens when the price drops while they're incentivized to go to another coin off to another coin that's more profitable right so you know it's actually it's even makes you more vulnerable because as your price drops down everybody jump ship right so well and not to mention I believe majority of the people mining ki Craig are probably dual miners that are also a mining aetherium so in order to help cut their costs they're you know mining two coins at once using a little bit more power and then most likely I would imagine if they're atheria miners they care more about their aetherium they dr.

D credit on the market and you know it's constant sell pressure so I feel like not so fast I see you sitting there I feel like you have some stuff to say yeah I can I can win on this a little bit there's a part of the the nice thing about having a six specific for a coin is the skimming the game thing like people are saying in the chat and that you guys are sort of alluding to but it's also the network stability which in turn later on over the long term drives a value basis so currently the network equilibrium involves a lot of do all miners secondarily mining aetherium and then D cred with sort of stronger than you would expect cell pressure these people aren't really interested in the ticket staking system and they're just interested in selling for something else so once you have people who are motivated to buy an addict read ASIC and use that to support the network they are probably invested enough to have skin in the game to stake their D cred to tickets as well and participate fully in the system bringing value to the voting process and with that stability of dedicated hash rate of GPUs that can't go anywhere and do all mine something else if it becomes more profitable you've got this this kind of key baseline hash rate from D cred a six that I'll kind of prevent opportunistic attacks from extra idle GPUs if something else becomes unprofitable you've got this you've got this very strong baseline and we've seen that kind of in Bitcoin is the original ASIC prognosticator that has a massive massive non-network Slyke how would you even logistically attack Bitcoin unless you did kind of what this project is trying to do build your own set of Asics and you know paying millions and millions of dollars to a factory and create a massive amounts of electrical footprint and make your attack that way so this is sort of a pre-emptive safeguarding of the entire network with dedicated machinery absolutely yeah Austin do you have any anything dad no they really hit on all the points those are the it shifts the investment of miners to being a have a longer-term incentive they covered that the inevitability I think of basics is worth mentioning if I spin Evelynn team like this it'll be done by someone perhaps that doesn't want to coordinate as well with the D credit project sure this would be a little bit more harmonious yeah sorry yeah second yeah that brings me to this point so you know secret can pork like the community can decide like we don't want a sixth and we move on to another algorithm and that was you know someone dangerous and you know there are people out there that are thinking similar things about you know building a sort of private privately funded ASIC for four coins and doing it because it's you know it's extremely profitable maybe it ought to raise so much money for for doing that but what that does is that also like doesn't include the community so you know when when Tim reached out to me and we knew each other before through through the zero pond stuff yeah he you know we really wanted to try to figure out how to do this in a way that wasn't kind of secretive that would bring the community involved and yeah you know and do it in a way that that would allow anybody to participate in this sort of endeavor versus making it just for a small private group that is able to you know just just mind the out of deep crap it's okay you know some somewhere public project come along comes along and starts wanting this actually sell sell ASIC so yeah it's something that something to think about so I I was hoping in you know Dave I think you have a little bit of statistical knowledge may be on some dual mining I don't know if you want to share any of those numbers or or maybe like just mining straight to exchanges right so I don't have the exact numbers but I did a quick analysis and it's extremely high that will say that by and large the vast majority of miners well I'll give you my methodology here I looked at how many cops there are how many different addresses the coins that are being produced once they go into maturity are sent to and and before they get to an exchange and by and large the vast majority is one in other words the miners that are producing coins almost all of them are immediately sending them to exchanges to be sold so who knows if they're selling them but there is you know quite a bit of cell pressure honestly I mean make it just even sitting on the exchange so you know we don't have any definitive proof by any means but it certainly points to it you know certainly points that direction yeah and and I do think based on the first hard for quote that we had miners but most work miners money decoder probably gots taken so because the vote that went in the direction of the community was was I mean it was extremely high I thought I thought it was gonna definitely be a much more contentious vote which really shows that you know miners aren't necessarily quite as invested in the decribe community as you know the stakeholders are so yeah where are we now so we sorry guys we have a lot to cover today so so yeah like maybe one thing we could talk about too is how minor incentives are possibly are different from actually like user incentives I don't maybe Dave maybe you want to take that anybody else so and when I mean that I mean like mining empty blocks you know some transactions can have a lot of opcodes and they can be more complicated and why that could actually be negative you know and cause miners to actually want to block like like not mine those transactions sure there's a lot here I mean I could go in depth and I know you don't have a lot of time so I'll just kind of try to touch on the the high level so you know there I guess the way to look at it is that miners are when the block reward is high as it is right now especially in the beginning of currencies there's a very high block reward that the miners earn just by mining the block regardless of what's in it that sort of creates a perverse incentive for them to do everything they possibly can to find the block first as opposed to worrying about you know maybe for example if you're if you're going to get a block reward say 17 DC I believe that's the breakdown there if you're gonna get 17 DCR and then you know you might have to miss out miss out on transaction fees of half a DC are well you know it creates this sort of ratio that it's just not worth your time necessarily as a minor or you're not incentivized with let's put it that way and you're not incentivized necessarily to include the transactions in the block because as the block size increases it increases what's known as the orphan rate or in other words the chances that somebody else also finds the block about the same time and if your block is bigger it takes longer to propagate across the network and as a result the other block may be seen first and if it's seen first and you your larger block doesn't get any reward so there's a very intricate and dynamic system at play that that many miners actually look at when they're when they're trying to calculate their cost-benefit ratio and so in order to combat that this is actually one of the big reasons that with the proof of stakes system that we have allows you to to negate or to invalidate the previous block it's because of the fact that there are these situations where the miners are not necessarily incentivized to have the exact behavior that everybody would open it allows the stakeholders to you know effectively penalize them for doing for being egregious about it like if you have a memory pool that's full of a hundred thousand transactions and and no miner is willing to mine a block with any transactions in it they're all technically valid blocks and in a pure proof of work coin if the miners wanted to do that you know it is you know it is a little bit unrealistic granted but not completely right you can have censorship of transactions you could have blacklisted transactions there's all these different scenarios that come up where technically they are valid by consensus rules and the the program in other words they actual all the nodes out on the network are gonna see this block and they're gonna say hey this is valid I accept it and everything looks good meanwhile you have people that are getting censored you have the transactions that are blacklisted you have necessarily empty blocks and so all this not desirable behavior and so the stakeholders can actually set policy and invalidate the previous block to discourage the miners from going yeah yeah I think the big thing is is in my experience minors often they're just they just look at everything as game theory and numbers right it's not about it's not necessarily about something that the users would want like a particular feature or the minors are willing to accept some quirks with the network a lot of times in order to edge out X amount more efficiency and stuff like that so I think that's in my in my experience the difference in perception from those two those two sides and change some of that by changing who is mining right so the idea that people who buy a de crédit a sacar into decried and committed 2d cred may change some of that behavior you know people are gonna be um you know working with this miner using this miner so they can get D cred and stake and participate in the community we think more than just dump it on the market so hopefully we can change some of that yeah it's it's true you also see a lot of those a lot of those bad behaviors with with larger and larger centralization right if you get players who are trying to extract USD value and they have a you know 100 million dollar ASIC farm propagating zero transaction blocks and stuff like that makes it makes a lot of sense to them they don't really care about the network they care about short term gains so I think you know this goes back to this idea of getting getting this ASIC in the hands of people who care about the network yeah and you know and then you know mining mining empty blocks – on top of that like we've seen in Bitcoin builds up the men pool and then causes you know high fees amongst the community and you know this is another reason why why the decribe project is not scared of Asics and actually wants to adopt them so yeah anyways on – sorry guys we have so much to cover so try to get as much as we can so whoever wants to take this one so is is proof-of-work mining decentralization like a centralization really an issue for decreed in terms of mining centralization because you know because of how the system works and I know we've kind of talked about this maybe already touched on this too much but you know maybe Dave C can take this one sure I think I already answered it earlier yes centralization in and of itself of course isn't great right I mean it would obviously be better if we have more decentralization certainly but realistically it's inevitable and the system was designed to deal with it good car sorry okay uh I don't know Austin you guys take this next one yeah let's see yeah it's mostly interested in that decentralization issue because it yeah the two layer the 2 layer block or like having to having a proof of stake signature required that's that does change things with respect to a decentralization I just started thinking about that last night I haven't had time to really grasp sure how that works I but I'm there's a good question here how about using the the DCR fund or the Devlin to to fund Asics are there any pros or cons to doing that I think you touched on one a little bit earlier on about how you don't want to set a precedent of you know dropping three million dollars on a Google developers and then they they run off like you know a large percentage of Kickstarter's do for example but would you add I guess the same you you could make the same argument though I suppose about about funding any project so anyway yeah what are your thoughts on possibly you're using DCR funds to be create constitute to help the development of the Asics also I mean my thoughts are is really that's a community decision right that would be something that the proposal system I mean if that's what the stakeholders want to do then you know Who am I to say otherwise however I mean my personal feeling is and again this isn't anything against the current people actually I think there's more than qualified and I think they have all the best intentions however the reality is is that I think that in general if you're going to have a vote on a feature that requires a whole lot of upfront money it's probably not a good idea and the reason is is that would set a precedent that's what I was saying earlier that it would set a precedent and I think it would make it sort of easy for hit-and-runs you know somebody shows up they yeah put it away you know hmm like maybe they create a real nice look in white paper where have we heard this before and and request a bunch of money and then you know woops sorry we couldn't deliver so I mean I think most of the the big proposals that require a lot of money will need to be in arrears and probably on some type of milestone system where you know as things get delivered payouts happen that would be my thoughts but again you know this is a really a stakeholder decision for sure and it's okay how much how much are you I didn't so how much you looking to raise and who are you hoping to raise it from yeah so we're not planning to use the dev fund and that's not in the plan we didn't expect that with all due respect to the deed Craig community we're looking to raise six million about two to do the chip a lot of that is that is basically just setting up the factory like I talked about before yeah and we've been through a pre-sale it'll take us about six months to build them once we get the money we're running some benchmarks now to finalize the hash power and electricity the power that we'll be able to offer and spec out so we don't have exact details yet until that benchmark comes back but in another week or so we'll be able to give prices and hash raids and stuff like that and hopefully a week or two after that open it up for pre-sale and get enough money to turn on the machine nice that's awesome and and what you're targeting what is the 28 nanometers is what you're gonna use I'm ready to a 20 metre process we looked at various different processes 65 40:28 16 28 is the highest technology we could use and possibly hope to recover the money from the from the upfront costs out in process node it gets more efficient both in terms of speed and in terms of power if you've heard of Moore's Law this is exactly where that's from but you're upfront cost also grows exponentially so 28 is basically the best we can do considering the amount of mining revenue the deep credit currently produces and it's it's important you know for if you're gonna build an ASIC to to try to select the best process that you can and selecting 28 nanometers protects against a private actor coming in at a cheaper process like 40 millimeter or something like that and sort of scaling privately so it creates a hurdle that somebody would have to overcome in order to compete sort of privately right yeah and you might you may not have an idea of this yet but maybe even just a ballpark or a window do you have an idea of like how many mining rigs you'll be able to ship after the first batch is finished so after the first batch so we're gonna put a freeze on sales after the first batch we want everybody in the first batch to have a nice long window to ROI and make some money the second batch is always going to be cheaper because we've already paid that huge upfront cost in the first batch so we need to make sure that people in the first batch get value first so we're gonna we're gonna free sales after the first batch for what we haven't set the time yet maybe for six months we're not sure yet you know to allow that first batch to recoup before we start a second batch that's awesome and I know you haven't done the and enough of the economics yet to notice on the nose but maybe you can give us a target range of approximately the retail market price or single mining Li yeah so we're gonna we're gonna try to keep it very affordable it's gonna be cheaper than an s9 we're gonna make it cheaper than ticket right now which is skyrocketing it is where it is but we want it this is not going to be a $10,000 unit it's going to be you know less maybe fifteen hundred something in that range you know something that you could run at home or something you could stack in a data center we're trying to take that middle approach so it won't quite be as cheap as a GPU but if you can buy a modest laptop you'll be able to buy one of these nice yeah so in regarding like total hatchery so obviously introducing a six to a solely GPU mind coin is going to be quite competitive compared to the GPU miners like like how much hatchery are you targeting to against distribute yeah so it's gonna slide a little bit based on the benchmark but maybe three or four hundred tera half more roughly a doubling where it's at something like that if we put too much horsepower on the market and we sell a lot of miners with a lot of hash power the cost customers not going to our ally because mining is what we call a zero-sum game there's only so much mining there's only so much D credit produced per day and so if you had a lot a lot of people fighting over it it gets split into tiny pieces and people don't get enough back on their investment so we have to cap the hash rate at something around those numbers to make sure that our customers are going to be you know happy with the results and in what kind of lock-in period are you potentially I mean I guess what kind of period are you looking in before you guys will sell more Asics publicly yeah we're kicking around something like four or six months we haven't committed yet when we get the benchmarks back and we set prices and hash rates and stuff like that we'll have a tighter number on that window but we know we're not going to produce a second batch right away and flood everybody out that would just be rude that's not why we're here yeah you know yeah and another thing I think should point out is I think the the amount of power consumption that these Asics are potentially going to be drawing even though the hash rate might not but significantly higher it's gonna be extreme or efficient this it's gonna be way cheaper on power and it'll be more performant than a GPU per cost so some of both and that's that's something we can adjust based on price point yeah so how can uh how do people follow this so they know like a they can get a heads up on when the three-tails gonna be yeah great question so we have a site DCR ASIC org I'm gonna share my screen real quick I don't know if my chat gets into the public chat or whether it's just private with y'all's yeah you can talk about it now yeah so you can go to the site you can see the info we have up there we're gonna be posting new info as we go you want to sign up for the mailing list will love you forever I promise unless you unsubscribe then we don't love you you know we salt and I will be on the decried slack also probably keep it in the pal mining Channel my handle is a POW hacker and salt is HSV 3 so you can chat to us there as well you can send us an email at info at TCR ASIC org as well so plenty of ways to keep in touch but watch that website that's where we'll be posting hash rates prices stuff like that and you can sign up to carefully us through our newsletter yes there so yeah the next announcement will be or when are we talking a couple months out or a couple weeks out yeah like a week like you know early early November maybe next week we should have some really hard numbers that we can finalize for everyone and then you know week or two after that will open the doors for presale cool sweet yeah we're trying to we're trying to move fast and there's just some stuff we don't don't totally know yet but we will be posting it on slack and on the mailing list in particular yeah and just wanted to give you guys a heads up there's another guy that's a part of the group box mining we've had him on the show before great guys name's michael Chacon box wine but he's he's also the advisor part of this he was not able to make the show because he lives in Hong Kong and it's like 6 a.m.

There right now no but he has actually invited us to be on his show so it's gonna be you know we're gonna go on there talks more about Asics introduce it to his community if he has like 50,000 subscribers he's grown extremely fast in such a short amount of time he does a phenomenal job so I think yeah that's great so maybe yeah we kind of like went through almost everything yeah does does anyone have anything right now that they could or any anyone have any thoughts anything I also want to go to see if anybody watching has any questions so feel free to ping the channel with questions or if there were any questions before anybody else want to talk besides me right now well I could certainly talk I was thinking one of the questions I actually saw earlier I think it was a pretty good one it was asked and you know when we were talking about the the benefits of Asics somebody had mentioned that you know that that only holds if DCR is the only Blake ASIC and there is some truth in that however it's not just that right there it has to match not only the algorithm it has to match the number of rounds and you have to have a header and that is compatible enough that you could actually use it so it's not quite as simple as oh well here's another Blake coin it can be used over there also I think that is probably important to note that if somebody bought the ASIC if you're gonna spend that much money on something that when you buy it is specifically for D cred it's pretty unlikely you're gonna use it somewhere else in my opinion right I mean there you know it's it's not like a ton of money but it's enough of an outlay I think that if you're serious enough that you want to buy an ASIC you're probably doing it because you actually care about D cred yeah I I tend to agree so this I think somebody had a question about the the six million cap and you know just to give you guys a heads up you know just like like Tim was mentioning that they're trying to protect you against yourself they can you know potentially raise a lot more money but everybody's just competing against each other even more and these are all the people that invested people would have a quicker ROI with potentially less hash rate so yeah so here's one how many Asics could the average person run in their house we're gonna so we're gonna build the ASIC to use a standard PCIe power plug so if you have an old ATX power supply or something like that sitting around you've got all you need basically or we don't have final power targets but it's gonna be like a hundred fifty watts it's not going to be fifteen hundred so it's definitely gonna be something you can run in your house without special equipment you can even plug it into your existing computer if you want to open up the side of the box and just do it that way so we're trying to make it very accessible definitely something you can do at home but I'm not going to tell you how much to load on your power circuit that's up to you and your electrician probably polities Zoning Commission so speaking of that actually I know they answer before our viewers here a lot of people are concerned about fire when it comes to you know running a big mining operation in their house and since this question has to deal with that what do you have in store to deal with like any kind of certifications or anything along those lines yeah thanks for setting me up we are gonna get ul certification and that's one of the reasons it's going to take six months that that takes a while to get those certs we're gonna get them for internet international certifications so if you live in Malaysia you know hopefully you should be able to import this I don't have a particular relation laws but we're gonna get international electricity so it's on this and so in the US that's ul listing so no fire is totally safe to run in your house no interference all of that we're we're a us-based company we're assembling these in the US that can be built in the US shipped in the US with all the relevant certifications export license and all that fun stuff so I know we talked about this earlier when you're talking privately before the show started but we talked about the potential of a way to everybody received their Asics but place exactly actually work to give everybody even like the most fair launch of this I it's probably like it's probably just a bad idea but maybe like salt or somebody could talk about like that potential yeah we were we were just kicking around ideas for that see with a six that have a have been shipped in the past whoever got them first it's like up to the lottery of DHL or whatever whoever whoever got them first would have an advantage because the the network cash rate hasn't been adjusted for everybody coming online you know there's there's a there's a sick companies that allow you to pick up from their warehouse and people would fly out and grab their a6 and fly them back at night so we were just brainstorming some some ideas for how we could get everybody online on the same second or same day even no matter how how far away you were even if you got stuck in customs for a couple days or something like that you know maybe not lost in customs level but stuck in customs for a couple day hi is there a way to bring everybody online at the same time so that was sort of a brainstorming experiment we came up with some options but we're not sure they're so great we're probably just gonna ship buddy has some a really great idea around that Telus and slack we'd love to chat about it we're open to it but unfortunately you know we definitely don't want to put anything in the Minor that would disable mining or any kind of backdoor where we could prevent you from turning it on to a certain date because that's just against the whole like philosophy of the project right so it's so we would need some other kind of weird way to sort of enforce that I mean I don't know if we're gonna come up with anything honestly yeah and yeah the reality is that it's best to just allow the hash rate of the new high-powered Asics to come online gradually because then pools can adjust like if the if every single decried ASIC were to be waiting in the hands until we made sure every single person had them plugged in and turned on if the pools with you know 50 or 150 times the hash rate they were used to and it would probably derail a bunch of pool software or potentially even cause some stuff on the level of the blockchain it's way better to have that sort of luck of the luckily getting your machine having the grant I was gonna say I think that reminded me one of the things that I didn't mention earlier that is a good point when you're bringing a whole bunch of hash power online how does the algorithm adjust or how does it handle it and so one of the things I did want to point out is that the D cred hash power algorithm does retarget every 12 hours again this was one when I mentioned earlier that we were thinking ahead the Asics so that they can be brought online smoothly that was a main reason for that as well as that you know if you dump a whole bunch of hash power on the network and some other proof-of-work coins they don't we target for significant periods of time two weeks sometimes and so you know if you dump a whole bunch of new hash power on work and you don't retarget for two weeks well your block production is going to be extremely faster in that period and it can throw things off or vice versa if you take a ton of hash power away you end up maybe long gaining it to a month or something before you can actually hit the next retarget so by keeping the retarget interval shorter that was another protection that we built in to try and help smooth that transition into like a lot of hash power coming online for example yeah so for the miners out there that means that once these Asics do come online the very first few of them you will get rewarded with the mini instant mine as the blocks of d cred get mine faster until they shorten that 12-hour window to the next difficulty adjustment and then everything should recalibrate correct yes so Tim are you guys planning on mining yourselves you know I think this is probably a sensitive topic for those we're not currently planning to mind for ourselves our model on this is just straight sales we're taking a small markup we're just like Dell computer we're not mining now if we don't hit the six million target and we hit maybe 4.5 and everyone's like look we still want you know at that level we wouldn't make anything for ourselves so we might ask the community at that point do you want us to go ahead with a project if you let us mine some percentage that we would work out with everyone but that would only be in the case where for whatever reason we fall short and the projects in jeopardy and somebody else had a question great question so to pay what payment options our people are gonna have to to buy into the pre so yeah so we're right now we're thinking of Deek red obviously as a payment option I don't know what else probably BTC and aetherium and we're gonna try to swing USD if we can more money into crypto the better so it's also a risky you know taking USD because of chargebacks and such you guys don't know what chargebacks are essentially you know you buy something and then you say oh I didn't buy that and they take it they take the money back from the person they had that money so from from the merchants and and then it goes into a big dispute and when it gets tied up for months and you know for those of you that don't realize when it is a great selling point for a Bitcoin for people for merchants to take Bitcoin especially you know I think you'd do it charge back with most companies for like up to six months like you can go spend a craps on the money on the credit card at store and then call your credit card company six months later and say oh I didn't do that you know wait you know it realized why the balance was like that well it's one of the one of the risky things with chargebacks yes target first batch coining it we kind of already talked about that they're still trying to finalize the details anybody you have anything else the number of units or shipping address yeah so that's a great question are you guys planning on preventing sort of selling a significant portion of ash rates like a certain you know one individual or I think that's a discussion we need to have if we do get a large individual obviously no one's getting more than 50% that is that's just a straight no but what is that number I think that's something that we have to talk about as a community to figure out what what's acceptable is a 10% whale okay twenty thirty but you know that it's it's not we don't have someone like that yet so it's kind of a moot point until someone wants to drop a big check on my table thank you very much yeah and maybe does he think it might make sense to kind of take in all the sales at once and if it goes over then maybe you can you know refund specific money to go back like for people that have larger quantities you know basically more people can participate I don't know what that kind of logistically looks like but sorry what's the scenario well I think the question was are you gonna have a hard cap on sales effectively yes yes hard cap on sales it affects the ashtray it's really a hard cap on the hash rate but every unit is gonna have the same pass rate so that is the same as a hard cap on sales right but I guess what I was trying to point out is like you know like let's say I want to drop a million dollars on decried minors like what will there be any sort of things to mitigate that kind of stuff from happening and like I mean I'm guessing if I'm gonna drop a million ID card miners I'm gonna contact you first like why can I do it through the website yeah with our current projections I think even a million bucks doesn't I haven't done the calculation I think it still gets you less than 10% after everything is said and done and I would imagine that single digits are probably acceptable to the community for a whale that's a discussion I don't know but I think it would have to be even more than a million to be a problem I think you know you guys to say you know we're looking for feedback here we're not here with all the answers we want to present and get everyone's feedback on some of these tougher issues right yes miss has a good question what about warranty on the a6 yeah so we're gonna have a replacement period we won't be able to give refunds because most of the money is spent on setting up the factory and we can't undo that but if you're ASIC doesn't work we'll offer a replacement guarantee for a number of months after any say well sitting here green questions anybody any other good questions here we come a most ever pretty well they're just I guess second I can recap a little bit while you go over it so I think the kind of the key points there that you know the cred actually does need in one a six there they're not something to be feared the system is designed to accommodate them and it was actually they were thought of in advance and many of the design decisions were specifically for that purpose the the team here that we're speaking with as a lot of experience and seems quite qualified to be able to go ahead and get it out the door in addition to the things that we've talked about the show we've kind of drove down on quite a few more technical topics and issues and you know all of the technical advisers myself included you know can converge that they they know what they're talking about so you know I think that um like said I'm excited I hope that you know I wish you guys success and I hope that works out thanks oh yeah so yeah just two last questions what do you want to know are you guys shipping internationally I believe the answer yes yes so in any country to you and you'll you'll be of course responsible for your country's import tariffs or custom so generally you have to pay that to DHL before they release your a package if you live in other parts of world I'm sure you're used to this sort of thing yeah yeah and then my last question is for my experiences a lot of investors that really are want to get into mining but you know obviously hosting a bunch of miners at your house is not always the easiest are you guys planning on partnering or having some sort of colocation facility that you guys partner with to you know take on you know people we want in mind with like 50 hundred bearings or whatever we're looking for a partner to do that and an option for people to do Hosting as part of this whole thing but Sultan I and 7400 we're not going to handle that we've decided that our we're developers our best skills are making miners and we really need to focus on that so we're looking for a partnership for somebody else to be able to offer hosting as part of this but we probably won't manage it ourselves although we hope to have an option for people to buy on the site right and there are a lot of projects out there doing colas or wot project for example that could be a potential partnership obviously there's no discussions yet that I know of but you know there's they've got locations that they're building and they're looking to have people host their ASIC miners there and they're having very regimented and easy to parse setup for people so they would probably be really interested in talking to everybody involved with this project once it gets underway in an official way yeah and you know for those that don't know what we're talking about right now most professional miners in the u.s.

That don't have their own facilities because mining with your own facility you really need access to really cheap power like that's kind of the game because you have to be able to handle the swings in price because you know when Bitcoin dives to 250 bucks you need to you know continue to stay profitable otherwise you know you're just gonna turn on your rigs off and they're gonna you know not gonna be making any more money this is why we also continue to see ASIC development you know go up but what people what a lot of professional miners do in the u.s.

Is they take the what would be the cost to build their own facility and all that and they actually pass that off to somebody else and they co-locate their miners with a with a bunch of other miners and what this allows them to do is you know and then they have you know companies have teams of people that monitor and make sure that the miner stay up and running you know it I think GPU mining is real finicky but Asics are actually much more easy for colocation facilities run so you know what you would essentially do is send all your miners to the facility they would hook them up alone and providing power and then you'd pay like a monthly power bill and they'd pay significantly cheap prices of power I'm talking like three cents a kilowatt hour or lower and then they take that make the markup on you know they might trade you nine to ten cents a kilowatt hour which could be significantly cheaper than your house could be right around the same price but the difference is it's like moving a ton of heat hosting a Meijer at your house it's not always easier but if you if you just want to do a few like that that's fine that's that's probably not gonna be any show along the way there yeah especially in the winter and I think one last point that I meant to bring up earlier maybe not so fast to take this but there's really not a lot of Asics available on the market for different algorithms so maybe you could you know just touch briefly on the bigger projects that have a six and maybe the algorithms and if he's list yeah I'm listening the bigger projects that I basically label there's obviously bitcoin with shot to to 6d Asics there were script Asics created for litecoin but used for a whole bunch of different currencies that use that same algorithm and then just recently this year we were seeing flood from many different companies creating x11 Asics the primary crypto currency for which is – formerly dark coins so there's an interesting any competition to release various configurations of ASIC chips I think there was some kind of open source or leaked source for that particular chip and it's created a a pretty big influx of hash rate – – that wasn't there before and other x11 coins like monetary units one there's start coin there's a bunch of there's a whole bunch of other ones I think in this pretty cred it's the only currency that uses its particular 14 round Blake and as far as I know you guys are the only people ultimate salt taking on the quest to make an ASIC for this you know this as far as I know the chip design will be closed source so there's no other company that can scoop you if you're working on it now and announce now there's nobody else that's going to sort of get done before you because they have to do the exact same setup process you do where you have to create a mask and make a get a factory to start than everything um there's really there's really no the the unknown quantities are a lot less risky I think in this particular project yeah so I'm gonna take one last question from the audience well you're ordering would I be able to handle the load handle the load was fine we've done this before I would hope I would hope he can handle it again yeah I think you guys yours raised quite quite a bit and just so you guys know I think the coin was a tenth of the price that it is now almost last year when corn was at about 600 650 yeah so but yeah last last question was your s was your FPGA bitstream written from scratch or did you improve on existing work okay so okay so in FPGA for those people who don't know is like a like a programmable circuit it's somewhere in between a CPU and then maybe generally if you write for an FPGA you write for an FPGA and it's not necessarily the same code you use on a music so we have designed for an ASIC but we do use an FPGA to validate that but that mean that our code for the FPGA is optimized for FPGA it's not the only thing that proves to us is that it's logically correct that it does mine we do have an FPGA running our ASIC code basically mining geek read currently so we know it works we know our design is functional but it doesn't tell you a lot about the performance of the a sick because FPGA czar really that's all so okay well I think that kind of wraps it up for you guys if you guys are interested in participating in this community crowd fund hopefully we raising funds oh the really great thing for the D cred community especially if you're invested in the coin I think we've seen basically all the coins that have a six you know should essentially become more secure we should see you know I'm not trying to give an investment advice either stuff but you know based on historical evidence you know the price of these coins does increase when the sort of thing is done so if you guys want to participate in this please go to DC our ASIC org yeah and that's it thanks for thank you to everybody who participated I think we had almost up to 90 people at one point you know thank you guys for watching share tweet it tell your friends you guys take it easy okay thanks

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