JH: Hey Stache, nice that you took the time. We are in total opposite time zones. You're in Long Beach, California and I'm in Singapore. Thank you that you are flexible in terms of time and that we can do this together. We'll have an exciting conversation about NFTs. But first, especially for the German one Audience, I'm not sure how many know you and are already following you. Who are you? How did you get into crypto? These are the first questions to get started. S: I love my German friends. I lived in Germany for a few years when i was younger and it holds a special place in my heart. When it comes to my journey with crypto, I really didn't really get into it until the end of 2013. That was when I first read Satoshi's whitepaper. JH: There was a hype back then, right? S: Yeah. I'd seen it before and kind of dismissed it for not doing research. I haven't looked into it. I just happened upon it on a sub-reddit, And I thought, oh, okay, that's cool And then I clicked on a link to buy and saw it was litecoin.
And I thought, no, this is a fraud. So I just left it. And then 2013 was when I said to myself, okay, I have to look at this and then do my own research and have read the whitepaper. And it was absolutely stunning. JH: What's your background? Do you come from the technical or the financial corner? What is your background S: I'm not a finance guy, I'm a tech guy. I've been building computers since I was 14. I also taught myself how to program when I was 16. I created graphics and created websites when the internet was very young and so I just went that route. I actually have a degree in architecture. But I decided in 2008 to work in web development. The reason was actually because I was released. That was the time that Bitcoin saw the light of day and it was also the time of great change for myself.
So exactly at the time when Bitcoin was conceived due to the financial crisis, I have also repositioned myself. So, as mentioned earlier, I started web development and have run my company for a decade now. JH: Cool. Then in 2013 you stumbled upon this whole crazy world. When do NFTs crossed your path for the first time? Back then it was the CryptoKitties 2017, or did you somehow dismiss that? Or when was the first time that have your paths crossed? S: Yes, the first time I came across the NFTs was in 2017. I actually started with CryptoPunks. The first on Ethereum. JH: Wasn't it even the case that CryptoPunks didn't even have a standard? It didn't even have that ERC-721 standard, right? S: No, they actually didn't.
And I thought that sounded interesting. Anyway they gave them away for free. I didn't really care, I didn't think oh man the graphics are great. It wasn't even good pixel art. I like pixel art, but it wasn't even good pixel art. So I thought, okay what the heck. Then later that year when the bull run and the hype started to develop, I think it was September, November when the CryptoKitties hype really started to take off, I wrote an article about it.
I showed people how to buy their first CryptoKitties. I did that. You can go to my website and see this 2017 article. These CryptoKitties, I think they are not as unknown now as they were then. I bought them at the peak when Ethereum was something like $ 800 which is why these CryptoKitties have been a losing business for me for some time. But I think, if I sold them for the same price now, they would make a profit. JH: Cool. Let's make a little timeline just to get people on the same page who really don't know that much about NFTs yet. And then let's mark out the timeline a bit and then maybe go all the way to this day together. Let's first define NFTs. S: Yeah sure. NFT is simply defined as a digital collector's item, which is located on the blockchain and is cryptographically secured.
And what a digital collector's item is should already be clear to a large number of people on this point. Especially people who have a lot to do with gaming. It's just something digital to collect. And the blockchain part is really only there for the verifiable information. You can check who owns it who has owned it before, how many there are and whether it is the real original and therefore not a fake. These things are important, right? I don't want to buy fake art. I don't want to buy counterfeit NFTs. I also want to be sure it's from the original owner and that I can verify that it is rare, that there are only ten or 1,000 pieces or how much of it there is. JH: Before I ask a few critical questions whether there is actually any value in it – and yes, I've read a ton of posts from you that are really solid and contain very basic information – let's start with the story first.
First there were CryptoPunks, right? Mid 2017, or when did this whole concept started with these fungible tokens, fungible coins, such as ERC-20 and the like? When is the first time? S: I think for most people, it all started with CryptoKitties. There were very few people who had heard of CryptoPunks. It wasn't such a big deal like, 'oh my god, that is so cool'.
CryptoKitties really was the first time you thought 'wow, this is something very special'. You could breed them and you had these little games and there was a lot in it compared to what has been there before. JH: CryptoKitties was the first to have the ERC-721 standard as far as I can remember. S: Yeah, I'm actually not really sure if they were up to that standard or not. I don't know if it was them. It could have been you, yes. But in general was that the first real version. And yes, they could have been on ERC-721 at the time. Because that was an improvement they made to Ethereum – first unofficially and then they made it official the next year.
JH: And then what happened in 2018, 2019? I think, for me at least, NFTs are 2017 really surfaced the first time. Mainly because of CryptoKitties and then, frankly, 2018, 2019 I didn't pay any more attention to it. And then only again at the beginning of 2020. I actually looked at my Facebook history, so the memories, and then exactly a year ago I was shown a report saying something about NFTs had published. And I thought, wow, that was a year ago now. So that's how I know that they reappeared on my radar a year ago. But what happened in 2018 and 2019? S: structure. Everyone was out there building. I think CryptoKitties was the starting gun for a really big development sprint. After this success people thought oh wow people want this stuff, there is money to be made here. You can do a lot here do more interesting things. And so we saw a lot of new projects popping up. In particular, some of my favorites, such as Enjin, had already started to work on their platform. And 2018 was a big year for her. In fact, it was the first year that I did my first NFT working together minted with Enjin and became the first content creator to have my own NFT.
So that was it. There was no one who had done this before. Before it was really just developers who worked on it. Similar to a game they developed but no individual had really done that. And certainly not in connection with one of these projects. So with Enjin I distributed about 5,000 of them to the whole Enjin army. I'm the general of the Enjin Army now, by the way.
I've been since the ICO days with the Enjin community and the same goes for WAX. I've been with WAX since the ICO, these are two projects that I believed in from the start and both of them did during that time kind of worked on these things. WAX has changed quite a bit since then, but Enjin has kept the original direction in which they went. And they now have a huge inventory of games that are almost finished in development. Games take a while to develop, but they have this ecosystem brought out a full marketplace and then they created the ERC-1155 standard, the 721 has improved in many ways. That gave you a number of new options to do things with tokens. At around the same time, we also saw other blockchains thinking about NFTs like this in 2018, 2019. But nobody has really made great strides. Actually until 2020, with the exception of a few companies. And now we see how WAX really took off in early 2020 and they brought in some great IPs. And the ecosystem has developed quite a lot. So there are other things who showed up during that time, but I have a feeling that these are the very solid leaders were at that time.
And there have been a couple of NFT projects on Ethereum that are doing very well too and the ecosystem expanded during this time. JH: Give me an elevator pitch for Enjin and for WAX. We will link everything below all references so that people can just click on them, but what is the elevator pitch for WAX and for Enjin? S: Enjin is about helping game developers, blockchain elements can be quickly incorporated into your games.
So you have a whole set of software. Toolset. They call it SDK, for developers to program the games on Unity or wherever. It was Unity first when it came out. And then they made a Mindcraft-enabled plug-in too, so you can literally just add blockchain elements to any custom Mindcraft server can integrate. In essence, they build these tools, they really have one amazing wallet that is part of the whole ecosystem and marketplace. So it's a whole whole thing with Enjin. But it really focuses on blockchain, Gaming and helping developers incorporate that into their workflow. JH: Cool, WAX? S: WAX started doing something similar. But they waved in 2019 around and really got started on the NFT scene and NFT markets and focus on creating NFTs. Her first big hit was "Garbage Pail Kids". You work with Topps, a large global trading card company, and they brought out a digital version of Garbage Pail Kids, which was very explosive and really solidified their direction in early 2020. And now they just keep going.
Now they have this really great ecosystem that has a bunch of different IPs has produced. And you can create your own NFTs, cheap, no transaction fees, no fees to send them back and forth so you can act and not have to worry make about a $ 15 fee for a ten cent card. You can easily swap your favorites with your buddy. JH: Can I give you a few other names and could you say a little about their background? S: Yep. JH: Rarible. S: Raribel is, I would say, the second most popular open marketplace on Ethereum. When I say frankly, I mean that it's not a curated marketplace like some of the others, such as SuperRare, Niftygateway, KnownOrigin. There are a bunch of curated marketplaces out there. Opensea is the largest open marketplace. So there are two of them. And rarible is definitely number two there.
One of the cool things they did that I love is how they integrated the token into their platform. You get RARI tokens for every time when you buy or sell something. And it's built into the platform. And I believe, it's every month or every couple of weeks I don't know what their drop schedule is but they cash out every week and you get tokens based on your transaction history. JH: And what is the difference between the curated and the completely open marketplaces? For example, SuperRare, I think that's a pretty popular curated marketplace.
S: For the open ones, you can simply register and log in. It's open, no one will stop you. And then there is SuperRare, you actually have to apply you have to show them your work, you can't just get an account automatically. So they have to give you permission first. And they don't approve everyone and sometimes they don't even answer everyone. But at Rarible, Opensea, anyone can just go there with their wallet and start selling.
JH: What is your opinion on that? Curated versus non-curated? I feel like this is an ongoing discussion in the NFT community. If you want to have an ongoing discussion, just throw in this question. S: I think there is a place for both. I wouldn't want that it's only going one way or the other, but check out what's on Rarible and Opensea happens with the possibility for everyone to minten for free and things like that. It's just an abundance of things. And most of it isn't that good and much of it could be fraud, or it could be plagiarized or forged art. Something people stole from someone else. These curated platforms, they do their duty of care there and you don't get that on this platform.
So that's a big difference. JH: Decentraland. S: Decentraland. Man, you really throw me in the ring, I love it. It was the first virtual NFT-based game land. Basically it means there's this whole world virtual, and you can go and buy the property within this world and you build on whatever you want. You can build an experience, a game or a casino, of which there are quite a number. So it gives you a lot of flexibility to make some really cool ones To do things in what they are called virtual land worlds. But you don't have to Build once, you can also just speculate and buy or sell land. You can rent it to someone else. And there's great connectivity there because you can display things. JH: Yes, they connect these things now. S: Yeah, you can sell things right in there. So it's pretty cool. And they really broadened that a bit. JH: Let's move to 2021.
Unless you feel like I'm a project omitted, which is discussed a lot. S: Oh, you left one out. You left one thing out, for sure. JH: Maybe. But which one? S: So the biggest one that really exploded in this area, and only really started last year. I was in a closed one Beta testing involved is NBA Top Shots. JH: Okay, I wanted to mention that right away. That was my start. S: But you're somehow right, because that passed into 2021. JH: My question would have been, why do you think there will be a meteoric increase in 2021 will experience at the NFTs. And especially with regard to daily active users, the trading volume and popularity. And not just in the crypto world. I mean Mark Cuban, Vaynerchuck, Jamal Perpetua. So many people come out there and say, oh yeah, NFTs, that's great. What do you think was the trigger? Was it the NBA top shots, it was Beeple who was so successful with his NFT, or was it all together? S: I personally attribute that to DeFi.
I know this sounds crazy, but I'll tell you why. Last year, in 2020, we had what we called the DeFi summer. At that time, the whole idea of DeFi really exploded, especially with the establishment of Uniswap. And at the beginning of the year we really gave people what they were looking for. They needed this product, they wanted it, someone created it, and it really did works well. And then there is this whole idea of decentralized funding really exploded so we saw tons of projects just popping up and looked for people to get money.
They did all of these pools of liquidity. And then they had things like joint financing or helped you manage everything. We saw quite a big explosion there and as the summer somehow subsided and the hype about DeFi subsided too, we saw a whole range of products, integrated the NFTs with DeFi more for fun. 'Cause everyone got upset about all of these things the copy of the copy of the copy. Someone said what can we do that there isn't a number of copies of everything there. Just throw an NFT on it. And then a lot of projects did. One of my buddies in the Meme Project, if you're familiar with memes, as a token, basically it's a DeFi Base Platform. You were one of the great pioneers when it came to adding NFTs to their platform. To create incentives for people. And essentially minting those NFTs with their DeFi platform. So i believe that it was something of a catalyst. 'Cause people started looking for new ways to start the DeFi money train again. And they did. And then started also getting any projects already working on NFT stuff outside of DeFi going.
Like some of my favorite projects like Gods Unchained and Projects on Ethereum and a few others out there. That's where it started to take off. Top Shot definitely paved the way for this as the year ended. But even in October last year, when Top Shot just got out of the closed beta phase, people weren't exactly thrilled about it. In fact, I was mad at the team for something they'd done. And I sold most of my moments thinking I can't believe that I did that. I was so mad at her. You know I get it, it's closed, it's a beta. But I was just so mad. And I got really pissed off and got the bulk of my collection sold for pennies. Not really pennies, but very small amounts. For the rest of the year I was busy with my own blockchain projects and didn't really do a lot for top shots, and then in December it just exploded.
People just loved it it was just this big snowball and in January prices went down through the ceiling. Hundreds of thousands of people wanted to get on the pack drop. I mean, I was in at a time when there were no drops, you just went to the shop and bought as many as you wanted. It has come a long way and you face some challenges overcome to really position itself as mainstream for a lot of people. So the floodgates have opened since December. And we have a bunch seen other projects and people trying to capitalize on them.
They know the Lindsay Lohans, the Mark Cubans, and countless other D-List celebs are trying stay relevant by making their own NFTs. Some people got it right. Some celebs got it right and others are just looking for a quick buck. In my opinion these are the Logan Pauls of this world, but you know people like blue I think he did his publication really well, for example. And very thoughtful how he did it. JH: I didn't know that. Can you share that S: yes he is an electronic artist and he published his NFT collection, that has tons of benefits and cool stuff. JH: Do you know what the details are? What are the NFTs and what are the additional benefits? S: I know for sure one of them is to be a VIP for life Gets access to each of his shows in Las Vegas. You literally can Show your NFT, go in and that's it. It renews itself every time. You don't have to pay anything.
I think one of my friends, Kenn Bosak, has one too. He did it really well really well thought out. And he's making millions and billions of dollars with this NFT sale, and we've seen a few others. I've got a Grimes original caught by Niftygateway, not so long ago, this is Elon Musk's girlfriend. JH: She made about 6 million or so, right? S: Yes, exactly.
She's a great artist herself who doesn't just do NFTs. So I felt that there was some value in that. We see a lot of people here who want to earn money with the hype, that's clear. JH: You mentioned Gods Unchained, obviously also NBA Top Shots, and Jarek here in the chat asks about RedFOX Labs. You can for all three give a brief summary? So Gods Unchained. S: Yes, of course. Gods Unchained, that's what I've been playing since the closed beta. I notice a lot, especially when it comes to gaming NFTs. Because I just report about it that's all I've been focusing on for years. When people ask what is an NFT, and they didn't know, I tried to convey that at events.
And maybe two people said, okay, I'll have one. But Gods Unchained I've been there since the closed beta in 2018. And it's a trading card game. JH: Oh wow. S: Yes, it's a trading card game, much like Hearthstone or Magic: The Gathering, but you actually own your cards. You can own them, exchange them, you can earn them in the game without having to buy them, which is completely different is than Hearthstone and some of these other games. So it's really fun i love the team, i love the story there. And it's a free game, you jump in and play to earn. That's one of the great models I have out there #playtoearn. So one of my all-time favorite games is definitely Gods Unchained. JH: Cool. And NBA top shots? S: So yes. When I look at RedFOX Labs, their main product is KOGs and it's basically a very similar version of the Pogs game.
Like milk caps very popular back in the 80's or early 90's. Somehow it conquered the whole world back then and I remember playing pogs back when I was in elementary school and it was a lot of fun. So what they made is a very collectable version of it called KOGs, which actually stands for "Keys to other games". And her idea is that these KOGs will also give you access to other RFOX offers in the future and possible offers from other blockchains if you have them in your wallet, one activates something. At the moment they are in the second edition and you can collect your KOGs, you can put them in sets and put them in what they call tubes.
Tubes are just like tubes, that you can put your KOGs in, and then you can poke them. So you're stalking your KOGs in the tube and earn RFOX tokens on these various milestones. It makes a lot of fun, I just played KOGs on my weekly blockchain gaming stream last week. Secret Agent Stache Show. JH: Cool, okay. NBA top shots? S: NBA top shots, very easy. They are collectible moments from the NBA. So there are real video clips from some of these great games. LeBron James, the monster dunk in your face and you can own this clip and I mean it's very easy but it's great fun, they made it very collectable.
They give you challenges their marketplace is always full, and you know getting in the packs was a pretty big deal like, oh man I got in the drop. There's a lot of excitement there. 'Cause that's what a lot of people wanted, but they can't give everyone a pack so it's definitely a hit right now. So it's a lot of fun. And even if you're not a fan of the NBA, which is the case, I like the NBA I've always been a fan in my life, but I haven't actively followed the NBA. But this really got it back for me, I was so, wow and now interested me a little more because of what is happening here. JH: The last project I want to ask about now, and then I really want to talk about the score. And I want to talk about hype versus flop.
Beeple. What has happened there? S: I don't know man, the guy was damn lucky. No he works hard I won't say he was lucky. When it matters … JH: He got lucky overnight after dropping art every day for 5000 days. S: He works really hard and he worked on the project that really made him brought this Beeple to the big stage. He's been doing this every day for so long something and put it together into this really cool offer. JH: Would you like to add something about the background, I have a feeling that this is at the moment a really big deal, too, with Christies and so on.
Would you like to provide some background information, for example who we are actually talking about here. What is this person doing and why am I actually mentioning this name. S: Well Beeple in general, I'm not super familiar with his story before he took off in the blockchain area. But yeah, essentially he got into NFTs. He made this big sale with his collection of pieces that he owns had generated over a long period of time. He was just making art, day in and day out. He made this whole collection and then he made a big sale with these things and it literally exploded. People bought left and right. And then he did a really good job curating with all of these special ones Connected marketplaces like Niftygateway and a few others, which really put it in the spotlight.
And now he actually has the first NFT to be auctioned by Christie's Arthouse, which, if you know your way around art, is the top. So when it comes to the best-selling Art of the world goes, then Christies does the auctions for all the expensive things. So he wrote a huge story in this regard and really pushed the boundaries shifted between digital art and NFT-based and physical things. JH: 100 percent. Where is the biggest action taking place right now? For example which platforms which NFTs? Right now, in early March 2021. Where's the action happening right now? We have covered the story now, we have created a small overview, so let's take a snapshot. S: When you say action do you mean the number of people trading or do you mean money that goes through the platform? Because these are two different things and whichever is the case, it's a different answer. JH: Let's do both. S: When it comes to money going through a platform, Flow has blockchain, which is the home of NBA Top Shots, by far smashes everything.
I mean, one could combine the sales of Opensea and Rarible and you would still barely get what they do on a daily basis to make top shots. So they push millions of dollars in transactions through their blockchain every day. JH: The flow blockchain is a spin-off from something or how was it developed? What is it based on? S: No, the Flow Blockchain and the NBA Top Shots were developed by the same people who also developed CryptoKitties. And that makes sense. Because as they are their product launched, CryptoKitties messed up the entire Ethereum network. I mean nothing could be transferred and they saw that and knew there would be a future Problem would be. JH: Dapper Labs, isn't that right? S: At the time, they hadn't started Dapper Labs, but after After all that happened, they started working on this NFT-specific blockchain. They founded the Dapper Labs and then first worked on the Dapper Wallet and then to flow as a blockchain. And so their first offering is on Flow, as the product NBA Top Shots. So that's how we got there somehow. The blockchain is definitely designed for high volume, they had already tried a lot.
They knew what they wanted they knew what would work. And you see, it works fine now. JH: For a very special purpose, right? For that special … S: Yeah. JH: I think that makes a lot of sense and obviously it's super efficient that way. S: But when it really comes down to the number of users. When it comes to the number of users who are in NBA Top Shots trying to to get these drops or to swap them back and forth.
But WAX actually has a huge user base. Thousands upon thousands of people trade on this platform every day. But the NFTs are of lesser value, so check this out. And it doesn't look like because they don't move $ 100,000 LeBron Moments back and forth 20 times a day. It's much more creator-focused. In the direction of an open platform and on things like gaming and trading cards versus something more is fixated on a high dollar value. But there are countless people trading on WAX right now. There are a lot of active users there. JH: And on Ethereum? S: I don't know, [ __ ] Ethereum, I'm over it. JH: You know, this love-hate relationship with Ethereum, I know so many people, including myself, who have it. I've made a ton of money over the last few years and I sit and think to myself, man, this drama. It's just like that, argh. S: I mean, I'm with you there. I love and hate Ethereum. I have a platform built on Ethereum, which I ultimately had to discard completely because I couldn't scale with these fees.
I just wasn't able to doing it in 2020 and I wasn't really looking for secondary solutions at this time. A lot is still going on on Ethereum, and there is still a lot going on of high dollar stuff going on Ethereum. Do not get me wrong. There are countless people there, on Rarible, on Opensea, there is a lot going on there. But it has to be high dollar values because if it isn't you will be charged an 80 dollar fee Pay for an item that would cost you $ 100.
So if you like your art or can't sell your piece for $ 500-1,000 it's probably not worth it Paying a $ 80 fee just to get this item. Just to buy or resell it. I think that's one of the biggest downsides for me. As much as I love it, as much as I've made everything on it, I have all these communities, of which I belong and in which I am involved. I really stopped creating there. I no longer do NFTs on Ethereum. Not until there is scanning solutions and Enjin releases its JumpNet and Infinity. JumpNet is coming soon. The same with Immutable, which is part of Gods Unchained, they are also releasing their first scaling solution for Ethereum. So once they're there, I can come back and do a little more.
JH: Yes, because they have to. Or they're screwed. S: Yes, exactly. Once they're in place, I can come back and say okay i'm happy But I'm not creating anything there right now I don't buy or sell anything there either. I do everything on WAX. JH: Okay, any other thing you think is worth mentioning here? I would like to move on to discuss whether it's actually an ICO bubble like 2017, or are we investing in a value if we put our money in there? Do you feel that I am an amateur missed something in NFTs, or do you feel we have a really good overview of the ecosystem at the moment? S: I think that's a good overview. There are a couple of blockchains who really started doing some really cool NFT things. In particular, we've seen Cardano just launch NFTs and they're just getting started.
Binance Smart Chain is also looking at it currently doing some NFT projects which are pretty cool and i think there will be more. One of my favorites, the Theta Network, has just started with NFTs and they are working on some NFT projects on Theta. So I'm really excited to see what they do. I am really looking forward to what happens to theta. Mainly because I stream there too. JH: Really? I hadn't paid any attention to that. S: I only stream on theta, so whenever I stream and it's live, it takes place on cryptostache.theta.tv. This is my home for live streaming. I'm no longer streaming live on YouTube, I'm loading I always put all of my videos up on YouTube, but I love the theta community.
I love that it's a blockchain based solution. I love it, that one can earn TFuel cryptocurrency just by watching my channel. I love that you can make these gifts and they make it super easy and it's NFTs, after all. These gifts, badges and emotes on the platform are NFT-based items. And I give them away every day. Or every Tuesday and Thursday when I do my streams there every week. JH: Cool, cryptostache.theta.tv, Tuesdays and Thursdays? S: Yeah. JH: What time is that? S: So on Tuesdays I do a show called "The NFT-Beat", and that's at 1:00 p.m. Pacific time and that's all about investing in NFTs. We look at projects, we look at drops, we look at tips and tricks, all of these things. And that's with my buddy Kenn Bosak, he's my co-host. And then on Thursday, I'll do the "The Secret Agent Stache" show and that's an interactive game show where I dress up as a secret agent.
We'll then play my favorite blockchain games. And then I slip into different ones Disguises cause I can't go to the games looking like a secret agent with my hair and my coat and all you know So every show I put on a different disguise and we talk about it why blockchain gaming is important and ask us what 'play to earn' means. Our developers know this will be the next evolution. Let me play the games, give away prizes, and have a blast with all of the people chatting. JH: That's great. We'll definitely link this below, like everything else. Let's take the path there. Did you collect in the physical world before the NFTs or is this new to you? S.
Oh yes, definitely. I've always been a collector. I collected a lot of stuff, especially as a kid. I still have a good collection of comics. I have a pretty good collection of baseball, football, and basketball cards and comic cards. So I also collected a lot of cards and you know, I used to play Magic: The Gathering when it really started. I don't have a large Magic: The Gathering card collection anymore, although I still have some cards. But I sold most of these when I was in college for beer money – sorry folks. So yes, I always collected. JH: For someone like me who works a lot with his left brain. I never collected anything that I would remember. Explain to me the fascination of it. Obviously there's no denying the market say what is right and wrong is not me, it is not you, this is the market. The market has decided that, let's stick with the physical things, that there are physical things that the market decides that they are valuable and that it is valuable to collect them. Can you describe the philosophy behind it, the mindset behind it, and then of course, why one baseball card is worth something and another isn't.
I want to understand this mindset from a very fundamental basis. S: Don't try to understand. It's crazy. Sometimes I think: Is there a good reason? I dont know. I think that, as with anything people enjoy, there's a little excitement in all of these things. Especially when it comes to cards that I really love. When you get a package you don't know what's inside it could be anything. Who knows? It could be the best you want or your favorite player. And to know that, to tear open the package is one of the really cool things. And of course I think it's a little too Triggers dopamine response because it's a bit of a gamble. You know you pay five bucks what will i get? I get a $ 50 card or all the usual crap that has no value.
That's a pretty big part of it. I also think people like to have all these things and say look what I've done, and of course it's very hobby. You can show off your collection and say, oh, check out all this cool stuff. And that's how you understand it, just as you talk about things with your peers, that happen in life because you're the same age. For collectibles is that also such a thing. So if I collect comics at the same time as you we have something in common to talk about. And a lot of things that we have experienced would be very similar. Like everything else, right? When you talk to people in your age group. So I think there is that attraction too. And you already know: money. JH: Sure. To stay with the physical. For example, when I'm a beginner looking at Pokémon cards or Magic cards, How would I tell a card that is super valuable from one which is not valuable.
How can I do that? S: That's difficult. Quite simply, with physical items it's pretty hard. There are price lists that you can get. Before the internet we had something like physical price lists, that one could look at. Now there are a lot of great sites online on which you can search for your card and find pictures, and then find out yeah that's the one i have, the average value is around five dollars. But again it really depends on who wants to buy it. Does anyone even buy it? Maybe that's why it has no value. I think that plays a big role in supply and demand. When there's not much demand, and even when there isn't much supply, what, oh wow, it's rare, but there's just no demand for it, maybe it's not really worth anything, though it might be worth a lot. Determining that is not easy when it is is about high-end stuff.
You then have to have that assessed which in turn is expensive. Speaking of Pokémon right now, maybe you have that golden Charizard card or something that is worth a lot of money. You have to have it assessed by a specialist who issues you a certificate, that you then have to bring to the post office. It's a crazy process. That's one of the things I don't like about physical collectibles, and one of the reasons why I'm drawn to digital collectibles because you don't have this problem. JH: But as an expert, let's go into the expert side, from the point of view of an insider, what makes one Pokémon card more valuable than the other? Because in the end the material is the same. Where does the different value come from? Is it the rarity? I mean these Pokémon don't exist, they don't really exist so they are only on the map. S: Wait a minute. What? Doesn't it exist? I thought the cards were the real Pokémon who come from Japan? JH: For example an NBA player, i.e.
A basketball player, at least for me, I can sit there and say this is Michael Jordan this is LeBron, okay I get it. For me it has more sentimental value than a bench warmer who never actually plays, right? I understand there is a connection here. How does that happen with Pokémons, for example? Where do the different values come from? Is that just going to be determined by someone? S: Definitely, there are things that give out. First, the rarity of this card. So the rarer the card is. The one who has this card or game, then decided, oh, there are only 5,000 of this card, but there are 50,000 of every other card. So exactly that means that it must have more value. But also with Pokémon, which is also a card game, some cards are more powerful. Some cards are designed to destroy your opponents. And they are also of great value. And so we talk about a variance in these things.
There are shiny, or gold, or special edges on the cards. And then they increase the value because they are even rarer. So i think it is the combination of these two things, the utility and the rarity. Those are the two things that will make up the price and something like that for most. JH: Okay, the transition, for me, I would still fight. Even with postage stamps, I can't understand someone hundreds of thousands paid for stamps, but safe.
Fair enough. I'm sure I'm wrong I'm definitely wrong. And there are others who are right. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm right. I am actually wrong in this opinion. Now let's get into the virtual go and talk about NFTs. Yes, some NFTs, Kings of Leon, sold, I think a whole NFT set. And there, too, it was very similar where you got access had and so.
So there is a physical element. But then there are these 100 percent digital NFTs. Where there is no physical representation. One can then argue if it's a pixel graphic, I can just take a screenshot make of it and copy it. Let's transition here with the value. How does it work then? S: That's a great question and you know, funnily enough I just published a video on my YouTube channel today, with the exact title "NFTs have no value, I can just take a screenshot copy and they are mine ". JH: I think I saw this blog post about these three arguments. S: I get asked this question all the time. Every time someone is new or doesn't understand NFTs, it's the first what they say, I can just take a screenshot? Then I'll do it.
You saw it in articles, Bloomberg And the New York Times who say that LeBron James cost $ 100,000 but you can watch it online for free, why pay for that? They just don't understand the concept. Because it's a new concept. Number one, and I won't tell you all three of my reasons but I'll tell you the main reason and you can then watch the video for the other two. The most important thing that makes NFT really valuable is the fact that it is a purely digital form of art or creation. It has nothing to do with the fact that they can be looked at. Viewing has nothing to do with what gives an NFT value. That's it. But people think it is. They think oh if you pay for it then you get that, you get it to look at. But everyone can see it. Well, no, it's not about looking. Just like the Mona Lisa, you can go and see it.
But if you take a screenshot of the Mona Lisa and want to sell it to someone, good luck it won't work. And why doesn't it work? Well, because people know this isn't the real Mona Lisa. The real Mona Lisa is in the Louvre, and we know she's been there forever. And she has this story. This story that we can track, that was tracked. Right, that's called provenance. This is a french word that basically means the history of an object, the origin. Usually it is a historical item, art, or something like that. And that's exactly what blockchain does to digital items, even better. Because it is pushed onto a common blockchain and history this object can be determined by anyone at any time. It's public, it's there it cannot be changed. So you know for sure who created it, when it was created, how much it was sold for, and the history of transactions after that, which wallets have taken ownership in the end. So the provenance is there.
And on top of that, you can't fake them. You can make a copy and upload it again somewhere. Someone could take a screenshot of my Stache NFTs and create your own NFTs that look exactly like mine. But they don't have the same story. This is what you buy, this is what you pay for. You are paying for the fact that you can verify that you know those were created by Stache. That gives it its worth. There is a story about it. The other one some guy made with my other NFT doesn't have that story.
It doesn't lead back to me. So there is no value there if you really want an original version of me. One can have an imitation but i don't buy a fake gucci bag. But some people do. JH: I want to share an experience and then get your feedback on it. I think Jack Dorsey started "owning" tweets. And one person sent me an offer for $ 100. The funny thing is that she paid a $ 50 transaction fee, to pay me $ 100 This person bought one of my tweets.
So I asked myself and I understand what you are saying. It's not about the person having the right to own that tweet. But the person can say I bought one of Julian's tweets and I own this very specific tweet. But let's say there is a second one a third, a fourth provider where I can also sell my tweet. This is the point where my conflict begins a little. Because then I could resell the same tweet. Not with this first provider, but then with the second, third, fourth, fifth provider. This is the point that I still have problems with from an investor's point of view. S: Sure, I mean, you can definitely do that. As an artist and as a creator, the intention with one's own art is also one of the biggest factors. And that's where I gave you my second point. The artist's intention. You really pull it out of me. Maybe you watch the video You're really trying to pull it out of me. So if I mined here what is stopping me to do it with another provider as well? Well nothing.
You can definitely do it there too. And it still has value because it's referred back to you. Because you are the one who signed it. It's a digital signature while you as an artist say I had an original and made prints from it and sell the prints, but I sign each one by hand. And that is essentially that what you are doing here with the blockchain. You sign it digitally. And whether you have it on Opensea or Rarible on another wallet or a different name or whether you just go to a completely different blockchain does not matter. The fact is that there are definitely artists who are on multiple blockchains and who do not feel that it is being devalued in any way. When you do the exact same art on different chains then of course you can do that, but then you are only harming yourself. That's what it boils down to. That's one of the things right now in this NFT hype that you have to be wary of people who have no good intentions.
People, trying to suck you off, people trying to fraudulently fake or sell stolen NFTs that are not actually their electronic property. Or oversaturate their fanbase, whatever it is. I mean, these people out there are going to do it. Because they are greedy for money. But true artists who really support the community and are part of the community, I think they realize this will hurt them more than the few dollars that they will deserve if they go around saying that there are ten of them, but then go to five different blockchains and mined 2,000 more of them. It's not in your best interest but you can do it. But it would still be due to them as artists as the original.
People have to take that into account. JH: I heard an interesting argument from a pretty famous German musician. I had him on my show too, he actually sold NFT jingles. He produced 100 jingles and sold them and the people those who bought them obviously had the rights. I asked him the same question and he said the cool thing about NFTs is the timestamp on the blockchain and with that timestamp there is then an unadulterated original. Because I asked him the same questions. But then there's this version one when I've sold it ten times yes, that can be, but then version one will always be the original, the provenance, the history.
What do you think about that? Do you see it differently? Is there anything you would disagree with here? I really felt that this argument that he brought about that it made sense for my left brain. S: That's what I'm saying. People ask me, well, you say what the artist put on the blockchain is the original, but it's not, what about the one on his computer? That was the original. Well no it isn't. Because the artist says that what he signed in the blockchain is the original. His intent in what he says is one of the greatest factors that gives value. Mint number one of something always has more value than the second number.
And you will see that in the marketplaces. The first copies of something will always be more expensive because they are more desirable. It was the first copy that was made. You have the first copy. But the second copy is no less weight. It's still signed by the artist, it still leads back to him, so you have to think about how big the offer will be. Will there only be two? Or will it be 10,000? Of course, when it's 10,000 and you have the second edition, there are a lot more copies out there. You have to take that into account. JH: I love this quote that NFTs are not about the right to view, but the origin of it. I think this is such a strong value proposition. I would like to make another criticism. And that's a criticism that I've seen myself. I have a really big audience, right now I'm gonna probably once or twice a day, by NFT creators, Contacted NFT innovators and they say Julian you can see the future actually design it yourself.
We start working together, you show these NFTs and just by showing it you make it valuable. That fact alone. On the one hand I understand what they are saying and it sounds tempting. But on the other hand, I'm not. I don't want to do that. You mentioned a couple of times that it's about cash grabs and so on goes on. Do you see a little challenge in this? What do you say? S: You're right and it really comes down to how you do it. So when you create an NFT that has no benefit behind it and you are literally just trying to to inflate it because you have a large audience and nothing else is involved, then you make some shitty art and put a high dollar value on it because you have a lot of followers.
And they say, yes, of course, we'll take that. But if you don't intend to support it in the future, get more done or doing something with it, it's a project I don't want to be involved in. But if you can give it some kind of benefit, then it makes sense. I think there is nothing wrong with that. I've actually done this several times. In 2019 I created a CryptoStache Founders Token. That was for my community and I gave it away mostly for free. I've sold a few, but mostly I've given them to community backers, who were already there at the time and already supported me. But it gives you advantages. You have this NFT token in your wallet and each month you got certain benefits. One of those that was really fun and cool that we've been doing for years Until recently, because of the fees, that was the "Wheel of Crypto".
And it's a real wheel of fortune, with a number of prizes on it, that I physically spin and then always choose three wallets each month, each of which gets a spin. And so they get prizes on it. So there is value there. I don't just slap my face on anything and say buy me and then I don't give a [ __ ]. It's a way to get the community involved. They can be given special rewards or in some way and wise access.
You can do something as simple as saying I want to give my community 100 hours as a gift this year. So I'm going to create a unique NFT token and my time, the 100 hours, Divide into ten-hour, ten-minute, or thirty-minute increments. And then you sell this and say, okay, what's an hour of my time worth? What is it worth? Is it 200, is it 100? I don't know, maybe it's 1,000 euros. But now you've put that price tag on and you've given the NFT a benefit. It has value to you, it has value to your community and something to redeem, would actually be helpful to people.
So there are so many things you can do. JH: And it could increase over time. Because let's say today the hour is worth 1,000 and in ten years it will be maybe $ 100,000 because you are so successful and is famous. That's amazing. S: Yes, of course. It certainly could. And one could even build in mechanisms like for example, you can only use it this year because there is an expiration date and if you don't use it by then you will lose your hour. You can do anything with it. And I think there is a lot. And that's just scratching the surface. That was a very simple example but there are many, many different ways that you can do that, and well. JH: Cool, that just gave me an idea. I think for a charity that would be super great. What other ideas have you seen out there from makers that you thought was well done, that was of value to the community to do.
Any other ideas I could think of for charity? I think that would be really great. S: Yes, it's a great way to use it for charity too. One of the cool things I've seen is the staking of NFTs. So this is something that we are just beginning to see on the WAX blockchain. This product is actually called R-Planet, you can stake WAX NFTs there and you get their native cryptocurrency that is part of their little game. So that's one more thing that adds value to these projects. It's just something cool and collectible from someone I really like or admire or whatever it may be.
But now I can stake it on these other platforms too and get an additional benefit. So this is one of the cool things by which you are no longer restricted once you have created an NFT, Anyone can go and say, hey, if you own Julian's Time NFT, I will also give five minutes of my time to anyone who owns this NFT. This is a very simple example, but there are also a lot of possibilities to adapt that for yourself. And that's a cool thing that I do in the community have started to see: Community projects that work together and say hey let's work together. If that person has this thing, or this person has this thing, it can unlock his other game. We talked a little earlier about KOGs also does something like that.
So this is definitely something that we will see more often in the future. JH: How do you see the royalty system? By reselling and so on? S: Well, royalties are great. JH: Can you explain that briefly? S: That's one of the biggest cornerstones for making art on these platforms. Essentially, you create an NFT, you sell it to someone for $ 100. He's super happy, you've got your $ 100 whatever the fees or whatever you have to pay for the marketplace. And he goes and takes it and resells it for 1,000. You put a 10 percent royalty on it when you created it. So you made $ 100 on his sale. And the next guy who bought it for 1,000 thinks I'll sell it for 10,000. Then he sells it for 10,000 and you get 10 percent of that sale again. And so on, and so on, forever. JH: What are reasonable license fees, where do you think they are totally inappropriate. Or is there already a standard? S: I would say 10 percent royalty is pretty standard, as can be seen across the industry.
Many platforms allow determine your own license fee. So you could also take zero. Or 15, or 20, or 25 percent. It really depends. And that is something that you have to pay attention to, of course. For example, hey, maybe this guy is asking far too much from this sale. I have to give him a lot Pay royalties just to buy that. So this is something that you also need to consider. Do you want your buyers to no longer be able to afford this? Maybe you want this, maybe you don't, maybe you think they don't care that it's 30 percent. But I think it mostly makes sense to put them on a decent one to maintain acceptable levels. You still get some of these residuals and they don't pay too much to collect your art. JH: I would like to talk about the specifics from an investor's point of view how to approach that. Before I do that, there is something that you think I've left out or that it's worth in these things there. Is there anything you want to add? S: One more thing to evaluate: One thing I think is really cool is that they also fractionate NFTs.
That's something we're sure of will see on some projects where they take a basket of NFTs, maybe the highly endowed by great artists or something, and then they fractionate and say okay we have this big basket of these NFTs, and we'll make 10,000 pieces, all of which represent these NFTs. And so you hold a piece of it. It's like holding a piece of this collection or a piece of this NFT, instead of buying the whole thing.
So that was actually a pretty cool concept. People will see a lot more of this, especially with high dollar NFTs, that gain in value. JH: Cool. I want to throw a quote at your head when we talk about investing speak and I want to hear your feedback. "NFTs long-term, completely undervalued. NFT short term, overrated. "What is your statement on that? S: I would kind of agree with that. I think, that there are a lot of NFT projects that are very hyped right now. We're just beginning to see that. In the next six months we will really see a lot of things that are very hyped and are likely to be overrated. But i think that NFTs do a really good job of maintaining value in the long run.
And I've seen that personally. I have NFTs that I've held since 2018. Especially a lot of Enjin NFTs and projects that I bagged. And they just went up and down in value. We're through bear markets gone and they held up, they gradually climbed higher and higher. So I definitely feel that when you have a great project or piece of art, that is asked, this will continue to be the case. But I think, that we are also seeing saturation at the moment and many people just do it because they can. And it's cool to do that. Yesterday Taco Bell announced that they're going to do some NFTs, and I guess now we know we're in a damn bubble. When fast food companies step in, it's a bubble that is about to burst. But that doesn't mean that there aren't still quality goods out there. Just like the ICO stage there was a lot of crap, you know just [ __ ] coins, [ __ ] coins, [ __ ] coins. But that doesn't mean that every ICO was bad because they weren't. I've attended quite a few and they're still there and they're still doing pretty well.
That wasn't the majority of them and I think that's what we kind of saw with NFTs. And we've seen projects come and go before, I think we'll see more of those who show up, make some money and then leave, these celebrities because it's trendy and they won't be doing it after a year. JH: Cool. Let's start at the base. Bitcoin. How do you think NFTs will affect Bitcoin? Bullish, it doesn't matter, bearish. So if I'm an investor and I think it's all too complicated, but i'm involved in bitcoin. Will that be enough to participate in NFTs or will it be completely irrelevant? S: I don't think Bitcoin is really relevant when it comes to NFT, unfortunately.
Some people tried to do some NFT stuff with bitcoin, but you can't really do much with the current tools Bitcoin offers for this. So I see them as two different vehicles, actually as investment vehicles. NFTs are obviously more on the creative side, they are one of a kind. That is why they are also called NFTs, non-fungible tokens. This is for the people who may not know. But that's exactly what it means, it's a unique item, you can't put them together.
Like a house and a house, they are houses but they cannot be put together to form a house. A bitcoin is like a bitcoin, they are all the same. All pennies are the same. In my opinion these are the two sides really great investments. I always keep my bitcoin just like I advise my community to do. We are all long-term investors. And we keep our cryptocurrencies. Somehow that also applies to the NFTs. Check out some NFT projects, they will be long term and you know that you can keep them. You can't go wrong with this. But they are definitely two different sides of a coin. JH: Do you think the NFT hype will help Bitcoin prices go up? or do you think it's a danger because the NFTs might be compressed again and suck the air out of the Bitcoin.
Or do you think that is relatively independent? S: I have a feeling that they are pretty independent. I do not think so, that what happens to the NFTs will do anything other than cryptocurrencies expose to the world. If anything, maybe so, it encourages more people to get their feet wet. Maybe this is the first time they ever learn about cryptocurrencies, because they heard about NFTs and didn't know anything about Bitcoin before. But NFTs are interesting, so feel free to try it out. And then they finally buy some bitcoin. JH: Let's go up a level and say you know Bitcoin the mother of all cryptocurrencies, is not as relevant as an investment. Let's talk about the blockchains I could invest in. Really invest in the blockchain where NFTs happen. You mentioned a few earlier if you want to list one type of investable blockchains, where people could buy the coins of these blockchains and would theoretically also be exposed to the NFTs? Probably on some blockchains, like Ethereum, not so much because there is so much other stuff going on there.
But then maybe another more specific blockchain, because of its special purpose, the NFTs. S: There are a few, I mentioned a few earlier, Enjin is one of my favorites. Very focused on blockchain and NFT development. Flow, that's the token behind the flow network. At the moment the token is not yet so much integrated into their platform, but this will change. Others, like sand. Sand is also very popular. This is the native token of the sandbox, which is also a virtual land world.
And one that I've actually invested the most in is sandbox. I'm also building a game on my land there. You can invest with it. Same with Decentraland, they have mana. This is your base token. These are both virtual land tokens that you can invest in. Obviously WAX. WAX is a great ecosystem, tons of NFT stuff goes on there. A couple of others, like Ultra, is a pretty cool one for the distribution and sale of games. We were talking about RFox earlier, that's one of those things. Axie Infinity is a very popular game, that has its own currency, AXS. Which is doing very well. Axie is really fun game, really good way to play to earn, you can make a really decent amount there. There are a few others. Rari, for example, is another one we talked about. Phantasma is definitely one of my favorite games that is still in development. I love what goes on in phantasm. JH: How about just saying you know what, I don't care about all the details, I just wanna hold a little bit of ETH, I just wanna hold a little bit of BNB, I'll just hold a little ADA I don't know how much NFTs happen on Polkadot.
I dont know. But what about that strategy? Do you think this is too diversified in the sense that that ETH could rise or fall because of NFTs, or BNB could go up or down, but then the exposure is not strong enough. What do you think about that? S: I have a feeling that if it's a solid blockchain like this, price is unlikely to be determined by what's going on in the NFT world. Ethereum has a lot more to offer than just NFTs, it always has been.
The same goes for the others. ADA and BNB and stuff like that. I don't think that will really affect this one. I think these are all great coins that are good to hold for the long term. But at this point in time I don't think their ecosystem is sufficient to have such a big impact. JH: Let's go one step further, there is … S: But you have a lot to sit on. JH: There are two more. S: Two more? Wow. You are like a German admiral. JH: What about trading platforms? Is it possible to invest in these and not directly in the NFTs. But maybe one level below where they are collected or like a whale token for example. Is that possible? S: I've talked about a couple of how Niftex fractionate the NFTs. Whale as a token has a large stall of NFTs right now and the token is attached there. But it's an ERC-20, as much as I like it, I'm not really that focused on Ethereum. But there are a few others. WAX actually has an interesting bridge built to Ethereum, where you can get parts of the total NFTs sales via the platform by staking and burning WAXP or WAXE tokens.
And for that there are WAXG tokens. It's a little complicated but in general it is a type of investing. And a lot of those also use staking. WAX uses staking, some of them have staking mechanisms, where you can hold them and stake them as well and then you get passive income, which I love. Passive income in crypto. It's one of my greatest things. And staking is definitely one of the things that I focus on too. JH: Is it possible to invest in Opensea or Rarible, SuperRare or what is possible there? S: Rarible, yes, because they have their own token, so you can buy the token and invest. But you can't invest directly in companies. There are no stocks there, they are not traded that way. So no. JH: If I want to invest directly in the NFTs. What are the research tools that the average person can use to get information about it? S: Those tools and things like that, these are things I talk about every Tuesday I'm talking on the NFT beat.
There are some pretty cool tools out there. You can go to cryptoSlam, this is actually a pretty cool platform that tracks a lot of what what's going on in the NFT world like sales, volume and things like that. And there are other platforms like dappradar or dapper view. There you can see some of the volumes and things that are going on. This spans across multiple categories, not just games or NFTs, but pretty much everything what is being built on these platforms. And I think these are some of the better tools to watch and see what is going on. I use cryptoSlam quite a lot myself. JH: Where is best to follow you? On YouTube and on Theta? S: Yes, it depends on what kind of content you want to have. So I'm very active on Twitter. I am always on duty there. That's what people can usually see what i do often.
But I'm active almost around the clock in my Telegram group. We have a great community there. Lots of people come there and ask questions and i help them. I spend a lot of my time helping people. But this is not my full time job. But I like to do it, I love it. The feeling when someone walks in who doesn't know much about NFTs or aspects of cryptocurrency, and I give him a little guide and he comes back and says, hey Stache, check this out, I did my first NFT.
You have helped me, I couldn't have done it without you. That feels really good to me. So there is a lot going on there. Twitter, Telegram, Youtube, I upload all my videos there, and also livestream on theta, but I also have a website, cryptostache.com. You can find all of my links there. I have everything there, all of my items. I also write a lot so this is where you can find all of my articles. But I'm on a whole bunch of pages. I'm pretty much everywhere as a cryptostache. JH: Cool, I'll link that below. My last question, and then I don't know if I've left something out. S: You haven't left anything out.
I still love it. JH: Where do you see the future of NFTs? On the one hand for 2021 and then maybe for 2030, so in ten years. Where do you see a bit of a short-term future a long term future? S: In the short term, I think we're going to have a big explosion here in 2021 in creating, will see in the development. I think by the end of the year we'll see that this will probably wear off a little. And some of the hype cash grab people are starting to fade a little and more of the quality projects rise to the top. When it comes to a long-term plan for NFTs, I firmly believe that for everything that is unique in our physical world, there will be a digitally based NFT-based article. We're talking about marriage certificates, real estate documents, any kind of legal thing. Your vehicle papers. Nearly everything, what is unique.
That would be easier to track on a blockchain. Because if you use an NFT-based auto registration system, If you have your NFT in your wallet, it can always be checked. It's verifiable, it can't be faked. That saves maybe 20 percent efficiency. And what does that mean in dollars. That’s maybe 20,000 or 20 million. So I believe that you can achieve an enormous increase in efficiency, and I think we'll see a lot more of it in the real world. And the use of NFTs to create these unique items, that we have in the physical world to support. JH: That will be an exciting topic. I completely agree with you, that will be a big deal too. These clear identifications too. Stache, I really appreciate that you took your time. Is there anything else I didn't ask that I should have asked? S: I think we've got it all covered.
You had some great questions. I hope this has been helpful to people. I hope you will check it out and learn from it. And like I said, if you have any questions I try to be available as much as possible. JH: I really appreciate that. Very cool. So everyone on my channel toggle, check out Stache on YouTube and Twitter. We'll link everything below. If you like the video please leave me a “like” there. I would really appreciate that. If you have any questions, post them in the comments. Thanks everyone, take care. I thank you..