Crypto Bites: Chat with Ethereum founder Vitalik Buterin

hey everyone bill bar right here welcome to another edition of Krypto bites I'm really excited about this one we've got a really special guest with us so we'll come to in a second and it's been a fantastic year for abra thank you so much to the community who supported us we've got hundreds of thousands of users now our community's growing every day we just had our best month ever at abre we launched our index token which has gotten huge adoption the bit ten several weeks ago we launched a OS a couple of weeks ago native support for EOS inside the abre app so hopefully you all can go the eos community and and and use abre to make your EOS investments and I'm super excited that we just launched native ether support for the first time in abre so instead of just investing in ether you can actually do deposits and withdrawals using abre as your core either etherium wallets and and so we think that this it really sets the stage for a burr to go deep within the etherium community and you'll see lots more announcements about our support for aetherium based contracts in the future so I'm really excited about that and I'm also super excited to have victaulic butterin with me the I guess you call yourself the the founder I guess oh yeah if you're him and so I'm curious how first of all thank you so much for joining us I know I know the community's gonna be super excited about having you join us so how do you describe your role within the etherium project or community today what is your role thank you so my role when I started was basically that I was the one who and if came up with the initial idea I wrote the white paper I kind of sent it out to people was brought together the community initially right now I probably focused the most on first of all kind of research problems so we are me at some point in not a fairly soon going to release and upgrade to aetherium called serenity what will include the proof of steak inside this algorithm so this is a kind of much more efficient form of consensus than the existing proof of work chain yeah welcome back together with sharding which is the SEC very large media thousand excess scalability improvement yeah and I spend a lot of my time figuring out the details of that upgrade and I'm figuring out what the program will look like it things like that and I am also and kind of participating in kind of different other sort of strands of research so things around like the cryptography economics like different etherium applications I mean I do also just go around the world and kind of talking to different people and they the–the erm community and DIF kind of yeah people and sort of larger and more mainstream circles that are interested in figuring yeah how to use a theorem yeah are you having fun yeah yeah yeah this year has been great yeah cool well I want to talk about that in a minute so I think just maybe take a step back and I think a lot of our like traditional investors inside of abra don't know a lot about you so maybe if you don't mind just like just introduce yourself like where you come from how you got into this in the first place and you know how you went from writing about Bitcoin to even creating aetherium sure so I mean I was born in Russia in 1994 six years later moves to Canada and 11 years after that heard about Bitcoin for the first time I first heard about it from my dad then I saw it again on the internet I kind of thought okay this is an interesting idea maybe I should kind of poke into it more I started and if poking through the Bitcoin forum say eventually found a guy who would pay me in Bitcoin to write articles for a blog that he was working on from there I became the co-founder of Bitcoin magazine which was this kind of website and print applications around you know back during the kind of Bitcoin early days then I spent and about two years working on that and kind of getting deeper and deeper into the Bitcoin community understanding of how it works on a technical level understanding and of the social and economic ideas so you're literally one of the few people who's probably spent close to half his life in the cryptocurrency see world I mean give it what do you tell you probably like 24 yeah 24 but like 8 divided by 24 is a third a third light 1/2 Wow but even that is incredible right I mean like I mean well for me it is because when you were born I was at Netscape right so right so like the idea that that you could even spend a third of your life specifically it not encrypted cryptography because I've been doing that as well since I was 19 but but the idea that you could work on crypto currencies for a third of your life is is incredible to me what was your first programming language that you learned I remember when I was like very young I would play around with like Excel spreadsheets which is like kind of a programming language then when I was a bit older I would do logo and C++ yeah I mean oh the main thing I would program is just like programming video games that I would then play myself until I got bored then I would program war all right cool very cool all right so let's talk about Bitcoin and the segue to aetherium what attracted you to Bitcoin in the first place it just seems like something to kind of gather together all of the interests that I already have at the same time in one package like there was the math and computer science of programming the cryptography the community back then those like very interested in kind of talking about different kind of political and social ideas and you know there's an elaborate Arianism was very strong but then look there were kind of socialists and like mutualist whatever's at all of these different fun little tribes and I mean there was even the set of politics and society a section of the Bitcoin talk forum where people just debate these ideas will they surely yeah I know so Bitcoin kind of had that it had this kind of these did a community with different ideas and like and a technology that actually could kind of actually have a big impact on the world it had this kind of open source software aspects to it it has this very interesting cryptography so it seemed like almost a perfect storm for myself to get interested in fantastic and and and you had this idea that Bitcoin needed a more of a turing-complete scripting component to it and that led to the idea for theorem is that we're actually there happened was that I'm back in maybe October 2013 I spent some time working on projects like colored coins and master coins are these really existing layer two is that we're trying to kind of extend Bitcoin with more advanced functionality and at one point I realized that like hey you could replace these five features was one other feature by just basically having a programming language instead of what these five five specific different transaction types and it kind of came over time like the first thing I did was I made a proposal to master coin that would replace like basically like five of the transaction types they have with a programming language designed to express financial contracts between two parties yeah so you could do like binary options contracts for difference bets like pretty much anything in that category with like one single type of thing then just think it step back for saying what was the attraction to you for this idea of having contracts executable contracts at all well inside of a crypto currency based model so initially for me it was like hey they're doing this thing they're trying to make it possible to do more stuff that's very cool yeah but I know how to do more how to make it possible to do more stuff with a protocol which is ten times simpler which is instead of like basically having a Swiss Army knife or the hundred different types of features you just have a programming language then you couldn't have build whatever you want on top did you have a vision we said oh my god the world needs like this type of contract or was it working new people this time like I started with these two party financial contracts yeah then I kind of kept on mulling the idea over and at one point I sent it to the master corn people and they said yeah that sounds cool but like maybe we'll get to it in a year on a road trip and I was like wait a year but don't you see this is like literally the most important thing out there yeah and I basically just decided to start working on it myself so kind of free of the constraints of having to iterate an existing system I kept on thinking and eventually it took me a couple of weeks to figure out how to kind of expands the model from just to party contracts to adjust these computer programs that talk to each other and gives you pretty much whatever they want but once I made that one kind of a leap like it just suddenly everything made sense that like if you can just do everything with contracts yep yeah okay so now let's let's talk about that so we have a lot of non-technical users of the abre app people who are watching this who hold the theorem but don't really understand the deep difference between ether and Bitcoin so can you explain in kind of non technical terms to the layman what is the difference between Bitcoin ether sure so Bitcoin is a kind of a special-purpose blockchain so it's good ads basically the one thing that it does which is kind of storing and the kind of processing the transfer of Bitcoin balances if theoria MS a much more general purpose platform so etherium contains a built-in cryptocurrency called ëthe which you can use as a currency but then it also has these smart contracts which you can use to kind of implement a much broader variety of other kinds of blockchain applications which could include financial contracts it could include decentralized domain name systems that could include like identity systems or a reputation and so forth and then there's this kind of big long list of watching stuff the people get excited about and like basically any of it is doable on ethereum and how much of that of what you just said was the original vision versus how much of that has kind of evolved over the last five years I would say a while like when I figured out how to move from kind of just to party contracts to this kind of broader model of what contracts they can do anything it became very clear that this was they kind of much more general tool than we realized you ever do and at that point like other people in the community just started coming up with more and more applications like there are some people thinking up of a decentralized file storage there were people thinking up of like different ways that they could make their own tokens I came up with some ideas around how to do things like a decentralized Oracle's and so forth and other people just took those ideas and started running with them you know part of that is like where order came from very grateful right prediction markets yeah yeah pretty well prediction market service other idea just totally came from the outside but the platform is general and so even though I've never heard of prediction markets when I did the plunge platform is a sign for the first time you could still do them that's super cool so so what I want to talk about some of the applications that you were alluding to in a second what's the craziest application of aetherium that you've come across lately like just you'd like this I can't even believe that somebody came up with this like is that there's something that comes to mind I mean I am definitely impressed by maker Dow like so what maker tell basically is as it's just a kind of smart contract system that issues a currency that which is kind of pegged in value to the dollar but it's not dependent at all one kind of any outside banking systems or anything like that and basically there is an even larger kind of pool of eath that the contract maintains and the contract like basically it maintains this kind of peg we're dependent like yeah it has this data feed that feeds in the price of if the US dollars from the outside and depending on what that price is like that's the amount of ether you can kind of recover from one die and what that basically means is that you get this and of cryptocurrency which is a sort of pure cryptocurrency in the sense that it doesn't depend on centralized infrastructure but it has a stable value sure and look theoretically you could extend this kind of model to not just US dollars what you could have exposure to arbitrary assets you could have exposure to like CPI's you could have exposure to real estate industry is so there's but the interesting thing about it like the idea is something we knew about from about for a couple of years but like the actual we did it and it actually works and it's like worked for almost a year and I think a little bit it's gonna be a year and like maybe even a week or so and the price has just like actually we stayed at a dollar all the way through that's awesome there's a lot of similarities between what maker Dow is doing and the abra platform using Bitcoin because we basically use multi-sig Bitcoin contracts to create our kind of stable assets that is the dollar even the ether up until the eath up until now right was basically this stable asset model using Bitcoin now it's a native ether wallet of course so let's let's talk about some of those applications so obviously the this has been a crazy year from kind of a venture capital you know i co perspective right so I'm curious like what is your perspective on what's happened in the past year in this crazy er c20 market and you know is it is is that a viable interesting application of aetherium going forward or do you think that that's kind of going to die I think there's definitely going to be even more er c22 just keep on getting issued in the future I mean I do think that the kind of age of like multi hundred million dollar icos has passed at least for quite some time yeah and honestly I'm very relieved about that um you know there's definitely a lot of different use cases for issuing tokens like one you could've used them to kind of represent assets so you know if things like these different stable coin projects yeah you could use them for like assets inside of video games you created years ER c720 ones to again non-flammable tokens they're kind of represents digital collectibles and you can use some your seats one is to represent tokens which have value inside of some applications and like I do think that kind of the app coin thing has been kind of overhyped and overused but there definitely are some areas where that gets totally legit yeah so we'll come back to the 71 the collectible model in a second I think that's a really interesting topic as well so on the ERC 20 topic what do you think about like just traditional securities enabled via you know the ERC 20 model not just like issuing new tokens to fund a company but taking like existing stocks and making them available the ERC 20s that's something that you foresee happening and mass in the future yeah yeah I think that's like a totally cool idea yeah are there startups that you're aware of that are actually trying to do that now for stocks I don't know like the challenge is right that you want these stocks to kind of be you natively like you actually wants the record on the etherion blockchain to sort of be the authoritative thing I don't like tells the court who actually has the legal rights and that involves legal engineering more than anything else I know there is this company based in Singapore called autonomous that was trying to just do kind of companies share management's on ethereum yeah and like part of the long-term vision for that would be that you can just have stocks that get traded on the blockchain but then that particular company shut down right when you think about like mainstream adoption of decentralized applications or any application that takes care of it takes advantage of a theorem what do you think the way to think it's gonna take for true mainstream adoption by the average consumer or institutional investor are they gonna know that they're using aetherium is it going to be relegated to the backgrounds you know what's and how much of that is dependent upon your development platform community versus the actual app developers I'd say in some cases yes in some cases no there's definitely ways that applications can benefit from aetherium without kind of exposing the user to any blockchain bits but then there are also other benefits that you really can only get by kind of making the blockchain parts closer to the user side as far as the big problems my top three at this point are probably a scalability privacy and usability mm-hmm so scalability you know etherion blockchain right now can process 15 transactions a second really we need like a hundred thousand yeah privacy like every single thing you do right now is like totally public to everyone and that just like doesn't do for a whole bunch of use cases so this is part of why I like we're working on some of my fancy cryptographic technology like ZK snarks to try to solve that usability is like a super big challenge in a lot of blockchain applications are just like very poor on the usability side we have a lot of kind of hiccups and like Oh why'd this suddenly just totally not work why did this take ten minutes longer than I expected the other big challenge that I care about is kind of usability of security so coming up with easy to use ways for people to store their private is that don't become vulnerable to like someone just to losing everything because they either lost your private key or the private key got stolen yeah and there are some interesting solutions that are coming out to that but it'll still take you know a couple of years for all these different strands to get somewhere yeah we struggle with the last one a lot I mean we have we force our users to actually write down their the backup phrase you know to recreate the wallets and we have obviously near a hundred percent compliance with that because we don't give the user a choice but it is not you know a kind of fun friendly you know process for our users so so let's let's kind of work backwards on what you were talking about earlier so actually let's star from the top so you mentioned scalability that it's gonna take probably a hundred thousand transactions a second you know at some point to really make a theorem useful where are we now in in terms of getting from 15 transactions a second to a hundred thousand transactions a second in the theorem network okay so there's kind of two major kinds of strategies that were working on for scalability one is and of layer 1 scaling and the other is layer 2 scaling so layer 1 scaling basically means kind of improving the blockchain protocol itself to allow it to process a much larger set of transactions and the main bottleneck with blockchains right now is basically like every user has to download the whole blockchain which basically means the blockchain can't hold more transactions than one guy's computer can store and our solution to this are called sharding basically means that you kind of split up the different transactions to just a randomly selected in of different groups of computers and this basically means that the blockchain can process way more things than one single computer can hold and that could increase scalability by you know maybe a factor of a thousand or so but then potentially even more later or much later down the road the other kind of scaling that we are working on is a layer 2 scaling which basically means kind of designing applications in such a way that not every thing that happens actually goes on the blockchain so basically instead of going to the blockchain every single time any user does anything you perform most of your operations off chain using just a cryptographically signed messages and you only need to put data on to the chain when there actually is some kind of dispute yeah so there's two major classes of systems that we're working on in this regard one is called Estate channels and there's a bunch of teams working on this there's a team called L four in Toronto that's done some really good work and another project as plasma sure and there's a lot of workmen that's been done on that you know me sago is the segi centralized exchange that was building on plasma there's like the matter dotnet there's there's more and more of these projects and then you know there's like one of our researchers Carl flourish has been doing a working on a yeah implementation of a reasonably completing on a plasma prime specification which is the latest version of plasma which has some really cool features in terms of increasing scalability and reducing the amount of data you have to serve yeah so so a question on on on chain scaling so so on the the Bitcoin core world for example beyond segwayed has really relegated scaling to layer 2 right which means off chain scaling you obviously have a very different approach for for aetherium do you think that the approach that the bitcoin core community is taking makes sense for bitcoin or or is it should they have the same perspective as the etherium project in your opinion I mean if Bitcoin wishes to kind of just be a store of value then and realistically it's probably fine though I think they should switch to proof of stake if they wants to actually be a currency that people use for transactions then I do think like base why you're scaling and also and of speeding up the blotchy and reducing block times that the base layer is also something which is very important like there are serious limits to what you can do later – there's like there's limits to usability of layer 2 and oh there's a tax on layer 2 and also the other thing to keep in mind is that the scalability of kind of gains from layer 1 enhancements and using layer 2 are multiplicative yes so if layer one B can be made to be a thousand times more scalable that's also a thousand times increase in the amount of transactions per second that you can push through earlier to say sure yeah but I also think that there are legal implications with layer two because you get into like money service business and emoney regulation there yes that I think I think a lot of the developers who don't come from the legal world don't fully understand yeah oh absolutely like one of the benefits of layer one things in general is that they literally just do not depend on like operators it'll depend on like infrastructure they just work directly on chain and that basically mean first of all reduces legal risk for a lot of people because you just need much fewer entities and possibly just no entities that even can be classified as operators yeah and also you know even in the absence of legal issues and makes the whole thing more robust because you don't have to and if wait for these operators to start existing to count on them to exist kind of count on them to not kind of coalesce into one and into one single one because of network effects and then charge monopolistic transaction fees and like all of these issues sure so let's segue now into the privacy issues you mentioned so how do you think what happens how do you personally think about privacy requirements for smart contracts and and the etherium model and are there legal implications of your perspective that needs to be taken into account or is it is it all about just doing the right thing for the protocol and the legal stuff will work itself out over time so first of all think it's important to keep in mind that in the etherium context aetherium is a general-purpose turing-complete blockchain and so what that means is that any of these privacy preserving protocols just can be done at layer two so we as designers of layer 1 don't technically even need to do anything it's ready to make it possible for these layer 2 node zero knowledge payment protocols to actually work right so in some sense what that means is like as well as long as there's people who are gonna care about privacy just anywhere in the ecosystem and keep pushing it forward it will happen yeah and it it also means that like kind of out layer one we don't really need to make choices of you know do we like ring signatures or zero knowledge proof or confidential transactions or rabid signatures or whatever you know like fancy a cryptographic buzz word over the week sure and we can just have a programming language you can other people can experiment with all of the designs yeah from a legal point of view I mean I know there definitely are have regulators in different places that are that are kind of more concerned about the kind of zero knowledge coins than about many of tokens where all of the transfers are kind of put onto the blockchain in plaintext and it is something that I it the kind of possibility of these technologies here's something that just is going to happen over the next couple of years and I do expect that for that but for some classes of tokens especially the classes of tokens that are kind of closer to having more dependence on kind of traditional institutions so this would be a security tokens like asset-backed stable coins and so forth I mean regulators may end up kind of demanding that they set up like their privacy in some way that allows the regulator's to see you see different parts of transactions and that's also something that's kind of inevitable but this idea that you know in the Bitcoin world this is a problem as well right I mean we talk about fungibility of a token meaning that if if I have unspent output for Bitcoin or for eath that basically traces back you know six steps to a public address that belonged to a drug deal that was arrested that somehow I'm culpable in those transactions because I'm still using that token which by the way is a problem with paper money because if you look at the average paper money it's got traces of all kinds of drugs on it it's actually all disgusting right so so is it the protocol developers or is it the ether theory projects responsibility to deal with that fungibility issue so that becomes a non-issue hmm I feel like our design philosophy for the etherium protocol is kind of layer one must be strong but layer two is ultimately the more innovative and so like we don't need to kind of explicitly make all either transfers privacy-preserving or whatever at layer one and like that honest we can't even work because like aetherium caught contracts need to use ethan aetherium contracts can't even hold secret keys so there's no way to make that kind of privacy preserving and what does that even mean yeah so the thing that you can do of course is like all of this different layer to innovation and if like I know in general I can comment while there is though there is this kind of legal principle that you know fungibility of what currency is sort of enshrined into law right because for for normal assets like for example there's this kind of an mo Dada quod non habet principle which is basically like if if you steal a bike and then you sell me a bike and then I give the bike to Carl then the original owner can totally just go to Carl and say hey that's still my bike given back to me even though Carl himself technically did nothing wrong right but with currency yeah that's kind of explicitly overridden in the law so it's explicitly designs which meet every ten dollar bill as being identical to every other ten dollar bill and in the case of cryptocurrency and I I don't think there has been any kind of very specific case about this but I know they are classifying it as property which does mean there's some risk that they'll try to kind of treat specific tokens differently depending on whether they where they seem to come from sure and I mean privacy preserve preservation is definitely one way to just make it kind of less feasible to do things like that which FA is definitely a kind of gain for though usability of the platform as a whole yeah so so that's an interesting kind of segue into this idea of governance right everybody I mean last year we went through this whole kind of segue to X debate and in the Bitcoin world and obviously you guys went through the proof of stake and and Plasma debates as well in the etherium world how do you think about governance what is first of all what is the word governance mean to you and how do you think it should apply to a decentralized protocol like ethereal sure so block chains are interesting because they are this kind of fundamentally new class of like thing they are what an organism meme you know like whatever word you want to use like yeah there are kind of like corporations but also not quite like corporations they're kind of like countries they're also not quite like countries they're kind of like open-source projects but not quite like them they're kind of like religions but not quite like them and they combine elements of all these things and add some new ideas and elements of their own yeah so the kind of property is not matter I think with block chains are that like they have this property of open source software that like ultimately the value of the thing is entirely and of what people assign to it and at the end of the day if you want you can fork but compared to open source software I think there are also a stronger disincentives against forking and if forking is an is infinitely difficult then you get back to earth in governance of things like corporations or in so I think ball chains are sort of in the middle between those two I view governance as a coordination process so the idea is basically that all of the users in a ball chain ecosystem are kind of playing this game where they just keep on deciding every day basically what software they're running so you know our am i running yeah am i running parody am i running Bitcoin ABC am i running Bitcoin sv or something else and the one property of this game has is that you benefit from just making the same move as many other people are making right like if I run a version of the etherium clients that issues an extra 20 million units of ether to me it might seem like a benefit cuz I get 20 million ether but I because really nobody else values that ether and I am just going to get forked off of everyone else's chain so base because governance is this game where everyone benefits from sort of making moves in concert there is a huge number of different set of equilibria that can arise inside of this game right you could have the equilibrium where everyone runs the same software forever you could have the equilibrium where everyone runs the software that I tell them to run and I say something on Twitter then that points to a new version and that's the version everyone downloads you can imagine an equilibrium where there is some group of core developers you could imagine like miners having a hash war to vote right there's some and like each of these equilibria are sticky right like once the system kind of falls into one of these equilibria and people have the expectation that it is this way then everyone single individual has an incentive to act in that way because they benefit from being on the same in the same universe as everyone else so ideally I guess what you're saying to some degree is is you're aligning incentives if you do governance correctly right yeah well basically governance is this kind of ultimately this problem what it is the question of what specific equilibrium should we be in right now right and within one of these equilibria if you want to kind of cause some change to happen or prevent some change to happening then like how do you do that so so let's talk about governance and decentralization right so so to me the litmus test to have a decentralized protocol on the Internet is probably two things in my mind maybe you agree or disagree one is is there a central off switch right and two can I stop the developers from actually contributing to this decentralized thing that has no central off switch so I think about BitTorrent is kind of the first project that that passed the litmus test for me where you couldn't really stop either the government's tried right do you think that we've achieved that with Bitcoin and aetherium where there's no centralized there's no central off switch that would allow you to really shut it off and that you couldn't really stop the developers from contributing if governments didn't like what they were doing yeah actually I am not worried about the ball the ball chain being shot off from a development side because I think first of all there was lots of people running notes and even if the developers just all go poof in a puff of smoke then people can just keep on running the same client version for sure but with the bugs that they had before right yes and then if bugs come up then there could be new to build new developers that would and if poppy and I will take a longer to fix but still get fixed second um in aetherium we've taken really great care to ensure that there are multiple implementations of thus over the protocol that people actively use yep so when if you're in 1.0 what we have yes the go aversion in parity which is the same dependent we developed version and rust yeah and there are other ISM people people use to bless but you know people could start using them more for serenity so this is the upgrade that adds in proof of stake and charting that's gone up to something like eight implementations and there's like eight different companies that are working on implementations like one in Python one in rust one one or two in Java and a couple of others one in them yes so that basically means that even if one development team had of goes down the others can keep going now I think shutting down it's not the only risk you need to be worried about the other risk you need to be worried about his capture so can you find capture yeah so basically can a small group of actors kind of gain enough power inside the decision-making process to ensure that like basically things go their way and especially if their way might not be aligned with the way that you know the community of the watch and actual insurance we're a simple attack and some yeah yeah well the exact kind of attack depends on what your exact mechanism is so for example if you have a community where the religion is that 51% hash power decides then you can just totally break and capture by getting 2 ft 1 percent of the hash power sure if you have something worth some small group of developers decide then you can like either be one of the one of those developers and kind of get a COBOL together and or or even just kind of create an ideological worth the dachsies this is the way to do things right I mean or you could try to kind of join this group over time you created but even try to kind of hire them as a company you could try to influence them in a bunch of ways but a 51% attack in at least two the usefulness of a network for Abra is almost the same thing as having an off switch because at that point the network is no longer useful well there's different kinds of 51% attacks right so like for example you can do a 51% attack that just makes the blockchain break but I can also do a 51% attack that sensors all transactions except for those transactions where the transaction fee is at least $100 yeah and if I do the second one then that's something that makes the blockchain still kind of useful and maybe people will just keep on paying $100 and will be super profitable for me right fascinating so so do you are you convinced that we've reached the point where either a 51% attack or just some kind of like government collusion to shut off the networks it's just is just no longer possible well specifically for aetherium they think like if governments colludes to try to bring the network down they could probably do it and in developers would have to kind of actively fight back and keep trying to make different network protocols and so forth and that's something that would just kind of keep on happening you mean fight off government attacks without active developers I think realistic we were totally not there yet yeah and that'll probably take much longer right right probably another podcast or video session fascinating topic I love that topic I think that the libertarian to me wants a fully decentralized network but I also realized that you know we're getting there in very logical steps that also have to safeguard the value of what people are using the network for in the first place along the way so this has been kind of a heavy conversation maybe just like we can close it out by lightening up a bit so do you I'm curious do you have like hobbies outside of aetherium do you read you read a lot yeah definitely do read a judge Ryan in reading books just like during those times when I'm either like traveling or someplace where I can't be productive on something what are you later joining I'm going through a and Jacob says the death and life of great American cities yeah so you just like to stay with the heavy stuff huh yeah I guess no III definitely try kind of mixing my entertainments with like learning or keeping up my German or weird things like that yeah I'm the whiter thing I do is probably going on walks yeah you're at your hiker yeah right on well we'll have to pick up this conversation over a hike I've spent a lot of time in the mountains so I'd enjoy that so so look this has been awesome I could I could talk to you literally all day about this stuff but I think we'll stop there this is a bit like I said fantastic thank you so much for the time and for everything that you do for the community and obviously you're a representative of a lot of awesome developers and we are very grateful to the entire etherium development community for everything they do we're really excited about going deep within not only supporting eath but the etherion platform at at abre you know we have we didn't really get to dig in too much on the kind of CFD swap model we should do another conversation with that I think we can probably spend an hour just kind of talking about financial products which I think for a core of our core part of our audience would be interesting so thanks everyone for joining us this episode of crypto bites this was super fun check out the new eath support in abre you can literally transfer your e to the abre app use it to invest in other currencies buyer the currencies restore your eath and have a great holiday and we'll we'll talk to you soon take care everyone [Music]

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